Eloren over on WoW LJ wonders if Blizzard didn't go far enough when they reduced the required reputation for Heroics to Honored level. Personally, even though I'm much closer to the casual end of the spectrum, I never had a problem with Revered reputation -- with my normal questing to 70 and a few instance runs in each zone, I didn't really have a problem grabbing most of the Heroic reputation keys. But even with Honored, some people with different playstyles (solo players, for example, since lots of reputation comes from running instances) are still having trouble.The good news is that Eloren is basically going to get her wish -- as we talked about last week on the podcast, Blizzard is planning to mix up the ways you can get attuned to a Heroic instance. Heroic Countenance is the first example -- to get attuned to Heroic Magisters', all you've got to do is run the regular once.
In fact, I would be surprised if they didn't play around a little bit with attunements -- for one instance, they might require reputation, for another, turn-in tokens, and for another, a good old-fashioned quest chain. Most of the attunements in Burning Crusade were based specifically on reputation, but there's no reason that has to be the same way in Wrath of the Lich King -- why not give players lots of different ways to reach the different Heroics in the endgame?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
6-09-2008 @ 6:50PM
SaintStryfe said...
They also said that dungeons won't be dependent on rep grinds anymore - Not every dungeon at least will require a faction grind. I see this as a positive. i hate when I've done every single quest for a faction, and am only at revered. If I don't like the instance, I'm stuck.
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6-09-2008 @ 6:54PM
Xonate said...
"But even with Honored, some people with different playstyles (solo players, for example, since lots of reputation comes from running instances) are still having trouble."
But... if they're solo players, why are they going to heroics? If they can't do normal instances, I don't really see the purpose of them wanting to go to heroics instead.
Anyway, I promise I'm not an elitist, but lowering the reputation required to go to an heroic really bothered me. I know a lot of people that were honored while still doing the quests for whatever faction it was. A friend of mine easily had the Cenarion Expedition key at 62, without ever running one of the instances attached to the faction.
That said, the Heroic Countenance was a pretty good idea, though I think it should require more than just one run. Maybe 3-5 runs, just enough to make sure that people know what they're doing. The way it's set up in MgT, a person can literally get attuned for heroic just by being brought in to kill Kael'thas and finishing his/her other quests on the way in.
Having only 3-5 runs works as a good compromise, in my opinion. You don't have to run things so many times that you despise them long before trying heroics, but at the same time, you get a good idea of what's going on by having to run it a little bit.
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6-09-2008 @ 7:02PM
jtrain said...
I was thinking the same thing. 5 normal runs really isn't that much to ask. Have players collect pieces of a shard, or charge a crystal or something. The biggest complaint I heard from people when they lowered the requirement is that players who were undergeared and/or inexperienced would ruin pugs. A 5 run requirement on normal is hardly a "grind" but gets people comfortable with how the instance is run, and at least a few decent dungeon blues to better outfit themselves for the heroic.
6-10-2008 @ 2:23AM
Nick S said...
i actually see it as totally opposite... i bought my reservoir key today (i got to honored over the weekend) on my hunter, then went in and dominated heroic underbog in under 45 minutes. i'm sure i'm not the only person who's had this experience. with badge, pvp, and karazhan gear as easy to get as it is, heroics are barely a speedbump.
waiting til revered would have meant running instances i needed no gear from at least 5 times. what's the point in that? to prove that i know the instance? a nice thought for those who gripe about noobs, but i can think of better ways to spend 5 hours of my life. 5 worthless runs for 5 different reputation factions *is* a grind, especially when everyone you might run with says "normal what? hell no."
many heroics are very easy. you can have the gear to do most heroics a week after you hit 70, and some the moment you do, in any role.
6-09-2008 @ 7:01PM
Chris F said...
While I have absolutely no problem with Blizzard changing the way Heroic keys may be earned your argument that "even with Honored, some people with different playstyles (solo players, for example, since lots of reputation comes from running instances) are still having trouble." is odd. Why would you want to give "solo" players a key without having to run an instance. Heroics are a step up in difficulty yet the argument here seems to be lets give players who don't want to run an instance to get what is a very small amount of rep the keys to the hard mode.
You already have situations where people haven't actually done an instance to get the heroic key, which causes more wipes and frankly more wasted time. I have no issue if Blizzard want to make these keys available in some way or another but they should absolutely make it necessary to run the instance at least once in full.
I've been trying to think of a faction which is currently tough to get honored with for the heroic key. Providing you've done the quests while levelling for those factions then most would require you to only step into once instance. Which often means you may not have visited the other instances associated with that faction by the time you're honored. The only instances which really require you to run instances more than once to get honored are probably in the Caverns of Time.
I respect Blizzard for making it a challenge to get far better loot, they reduced that challenge yet some people still find it tough? I appreciate that not everyone has hours to spend farming reputation, but running an instance to learn it while also gaining the necessary reputation (so long as you've done the solo levelling quests) shouldn't be a problem even for the most casual gamer.
I made a point to visit all instances on normal before going in on heroic even if I have the heroic key, it gives me chance to get a feel for the place and I'd like to think the group I'll go with in heroic would notice the difference of that experience. I can't force my way of playing on other people though and I wouldn't want to; play to have fun, but please don't take away some challenge to getting rewards.
I'd favour a method where for each instance you had to run it in its entirety, not for each faction but actualy for each instance. Once quest per instance and you can then get the key for that instance while those you might not like can remain closed off. This would make it easy enough that even a very casual gamer could get the key while guaranteeing that they've at least run it once.
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6-09-2008 @ 7:04PM
Xtazey said...
Gief more questlines to be honest... All I see nowadays is "Lol free loot, just talk to that guy over there and you get it"
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6-09-2008 @ 7:12PM
Zhalseran said...
I'm not sure how someone can have trouble getting honored with a faction, even playing solo. The only ones I can see being problematic are lower city and keepers of time. Even then though, its not unfair in the least to expect someone to have done an instance on normal before they do it on heroic, like they did with Magisters' Terrace. In fact I'm of the belief that if you have not done the instance on normal first you SHOULDN'T have the right to do it on heroic.
I was personally pretty annoyed when the rep requirement was lowered, but I do have to admit that since then I have run a good few heroics I would have otherwise been unable to run, particularly on alts, and particularly because I changed mains after getting all the heroic keys on my Rogue. This is touching more on over-all attunement however, such as the discussion that attunements should be account wide, and I don't think thats the matter at hand.
Personally I liked the way it was done in Magisters' Terrace, and that is obviously the way Blizzard is looking to go with heroics. Not only is the attunement relevant to the instance, but it is rewarding in itself, and unlocks a dungeon which drops 5 epics. I don't particularly mind easier attunements, but if the reward is going to be greater, I think the barrier to entry needs to be if nothing else, more specific than it is now.
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6-09-2008 @ 9:12PM
hamiltonerics said...
Ok, so, we all know that different instances have different difficulty levels as heroics, right? The sub-70 instances on Heroic are noticeably easier than the level 70 instances on heroic, and that just plain makes sense. I think that they should "tier" the heroic requirements. Let's say, you need honored, or a fairly simple quest, to be attuned to the equivalent of Ramps and Blood Furnace. But you would then need revered, or a more extensive quest line (or continuation of the original) to be attuned to Shattered Halls. Because honestly, a level 70 group in blues can trash H-Ramps, but good groups get thrown around in H-SH, mostly because of the pulls. You should be able to attain Heroic attunement to SH rather easily as you run H-Ramps and H-BF, and that doesn't guarantee, but increases the probability of having better loot (I suppose Badges do somewhat guarantee better loot).
Blizz obviously knows that different Heroics are easier or harder, and that should be reflected in the attunement process.
Alternatively, simply having you run each instance once on normal would work too. It seems odd that you can get attuned for Steamvaults by running Underbog. Honestly, if simply everyone in your heroic group KNEW the instance, most problems would be solved (there still remain some gear pre reqs, but they are lower than most people think, imo)
6-09-2008 @ 7:21PM
Iwanttobeasleep said...
God, I hope it's the same for everything. When I first started doing heroics on my first 70, I had enough trouble remembering to buy all the keys as I hit honored. I'd hate to have to keep track of which quest chains, rep grinds, instances, etc I'd need to do. I hate having to consult WoWwiki and keep notes just to play the game normally.
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6-09-2008 @ 7:28PM
mizatt said...
I thought Heroic Countenance was a decent enough way to handle it. Revered rep was apparently a little too much work for some people (and stuff like armaments and turnins could be AH-bought anyway) but at the same time, having it only at Honored doesn't guarantee that anyone has even run the instance before. If they had future attunements work like Magister's Terrace that would be fine with me.
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6-09-2008 @ 7:43PM
john thorpe said...
I'd be fine if they raised the attunement for heroics, provided they make the attunement valid for any toon on my account.
If your goal is for me to prove I'm not a retard, and I do so on my paladin, then I shouldn't have to jump through the same 20 hoops on my rogue.
That will deal with the problem of people wanting to drag alts along while also keeping the morons at bay.
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6-09-2008 @ 8:01PM
SpaceDog said...
I think revered was a little bit high. My hunter is in T4/T5 gear and he's still not revered with HH or Lower City. I did level him 60-70 in a tiny guild, though, which made it difficult to do many instance runs while leveling.
I think it was possible to get geared for heroics without actually having the rep for them - especially when you have crafted sets, as well as some of the best quest rewards. Some might disagree, but I think it's possible to be prepared gear-wise and experience-wise without reaching revered.
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6-09-2008 @ 8:07PM
Xtazey said...
I leveled all my alts to 70 without being in a guild, or asking for boosting, and I hit revered on pretty much all the needed factions. You just need to be in the LFG channel while leveling, so you get into the groups.
6-09-2008 @ 8:23PM
SpaceDog said...
I didn't say it couldn't be done, I just said it didn't happen for me.
I also wasn't suggesting it was the reason why I thought revered was a bit high of a requirement, I just thought I would explain how I got into my situation.
6-09-2008 @ 8:38PM
jmsalsa said...
as a casual wow player, i never felt that honored was too much to ask to run a heroic. also, i agree with most people here that it wouldn't hurt to require someone to run the instance at least once in order to do it on heroics. that at least makes sure the person as SOME clue of what they're doing....
6-09-2008 @ 9:02PM
PimpyMicPimp said...
The only concern I would have with a long quest chain for heroic attunments is for alts/people late to the WoTLK explosion.
It was (kind of) the same deal with Kharazan attunement, it was fairly hard to find people to do it with for alts/newbs unless you had friends or guildies to run you through it.
I'm not saying I'm against this or QQing about anything, it's just a possible concern.
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6-09-2008 @ 9:17PM
Ilnara said...
Simple fact is, the higher the requirements, the less people will get to do them and thats bad for guilds and this game in the long run.
I'm sure everyone here reading has been in a guild that has imploded because they don't have enough people attuned, or have enough people with the time to attune, or lose players to the bigger guilds just to progress.
My own guild is going through it right now, and this is the 5th such guild I've watched this happen to.
Not a very good system for keeping people interested long term in your game. I say the lowering of requirements is a good thing. For everyone. For the game et al. Theres already far to little loyalty need built into this game with players staying only long enough to get their gear then 'peace out' to the next lewt train.
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6-09-2008 @ 9:25PM
TTFK said...
I see the issue from a different angle: I don't understand why I am FORCED to run Heroics in order to get any decent amount of rep once I hit honored.
Go ahead and move the heroics back to Revered, but make it so casuals can go on 15-20 normal runs and still get a bit of the rep item rewards for his trouble.
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6-09-2008 @ 9:32PM
Drekkus said...
My comment would be if they remove or lower the attunement too far, we would have complete newbies running wanting to run a heroic version of a dungeon, which in my mind is sort of a strange situation. Heroics are meant to be just that, a higher level setting of an instance.
You should at least run the instance once to familiarise yourself in normal mode before having a go at heroic. I feel MgT's "Run normal once" requirement is a good way to make sure people have at least seen this instance once in normal mode and are not completely newbie to the intance.
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6-09-2008 @ 11:55PM
Kaphik said...
Heroic Countenance is a joke, as is the SSO rep grind. Really, people were exalted in one or two days?
Revered wasn't very hard to reach for all of the factions. The whole problem is that a good portion of people now no longer run the instances for gear, they pvp for it. That is why they are having problems reaching the required rep level.
I understand the grind is not nearly as tolerable the second, third, fourth, etc. time you run through it. I am on the fence about the idea of opening up heroics for all your characters if you have one meet the requirements, though.
I do fully support the idea of multiple ways to get heroic keys they mentioned. Questlines in particular would be nice, require you do hit certain instances.
Sadly, the trend seems to be Blizzard giving the store away, and the doesn't bode well for the longevity of the game. What is Blizzard going to do once everyone has finished most of the endgame content when the expansion comes out? Their track record of releasing expansions and new content quickly is not so good.
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