Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Small, casual guilds often have it the toughest of all. They don't have the numbers to run the 25-player content. They often have only a small handful of tanks and healers. With such few resources, how do you attract anyone new in order to maintain any semblance of a guild after people quit? It looks like life may become much easier for these guilds once Wrath of the Lich King launches. But that puts all the small guilds at a crossroads of sorts. What, this week's e-mail asks, should they all do in the meantime?
Hello Scott,
I am an officer of a guild on the Llane server on the alliance side. Our guild has existed for the past 2 years and have been very casual and most of us have become good friends through the course of the game. [. . .]
We were clearing kara weekly at one point and since we are a very small guild, we only had 1 set of tanks and healers. The kara farming stopped when our Main Tank got all his drops and seeing that Kara was as far as we were going at that time, just stopped tanking to level an alt. He got bored and blamed us for not gearing up any other tanks.
We were recruiting actively at that time and got a few other tanks, but we never had any set times for raids. This killed the spirit for the people who were new and they moved on to other guilds. Of course this hurt our numbers and we finally got back to doing Kara about 3 months later with the core group's alts filling in the tank and healer roles. A note about our core group . . . we gelled so well that we used to do Moroes with no crowd control and 7 out of 10 players in blues and greens. The group just worked and we made the best out of it. With alts tanking and healing, we got to clear Kara.
About a month or two of that happening, we lost a few other core players who wanted to experience more content. [N]ow what's left of our guild is about 7 active people who just log on once in a while and we cant seem to get runs going.
I realize that our guild is come to the point where we need to just call it quits or do whatever we can pugging and stuff. [. . .] My question is, should we bother waiting for Wrath to kinda revamp our guild structure and do it right this time around, or just disband and go our separate ways?[. . .]
Thanks for your help and hope to hear from ya.
Peace
--K.
K, I hope you take some comfort from the fact that your guild is specifically the type that Blizzard set out to help when they decided to allow 10-player raids to parallel the 25s throughout the expansion. This is a huge boost to all the smaller guilds like yours out there who are struggling to keep it together.
It doesn't change the fact that your guild is specifically the type that Blizzard set out to destroy with The Burning Crusade. How on Earth did the game designers expect small guilds to survive when there was absolutely nothing new you could do once Nightbane and Prince Malchezaar were dead? I guess they figured the smaller guilds would all pair up like eighth graders at a formal dance. But a lot of them just sat around the edges of the dance floor, looking sad as all their friends got to tango with Kael'thas and Illidan.
Zul'Aman was touted as a fix, but it came out 11 months after Karazhan. The damage had already been done 10 times over. And even those small guilds who made it that far faced a long uphill battle trying to clear the zone, as some of the gear checks are quite unforgiving for Tier 4 guilds (and it's tough to catch up when most bosses only drop one piece of loot each).
But that's all ancient history now. The future is promising: Theoretically you can see all (or at least most) of the game's content with just 12-15 people. It's a far cry from the days of exploring the Molten Core with 39 of your closest friends. Some people hate the idea of small raids, but I'm not among them. Everyone has a different idea of what "massive" should mean in the MMO label. Soon, Warcraft players will be able to choose for themselves what it means rather than the game deciding for them. And that is a good thing.
But the Lich King still crafts his schemes in secret, and no one knows when the expansion pack will launch. So what should guilds like K's do while they wait?
No matter what you do, K, your guild should make the decision as a group. It's small enough that every single person should have a vote. The way I see it you have three options: (1) Wait it out, (2) Disband the guild, or (3) Join another guild as a group.
If you wait it out, you run the risk of losing even more core members. There's always the chance they'll come back later, but it's no guarantee. On the plus side, you'll retain control of your own destiny and there will actually be a guild for your wayward members to come back to.
Your second option is certainly the most drastic. Your guild will be finished, yet another victim of the 10-player to 25-player transition. But it gives each of you the best chance to find a new home where you'll be comfortable.
To me the third option is better than disbanding. Your core group clearly has great chemistry, so it would be a shame to part ways. And a larger guild could benefit a great deal from that chemistry. My guild has occasionally absorbed smaller guilds like yours, and it's always a bonus when those former members are able to attend the same raid. You put them in a group and give them the same assignment, and they get the job done.
Assuming you can find a guild that will take you en masse, you'll have the benefit of staying together with the advantage of seeing all the great content that has eluded you for the past year and a half. And if you're fortunate, you might find some chemistry with your new guild, too.
There are some inherent risks to this plan, however. Each guild has its own subculture and you never know how you'll fit in until you're there. You'll have to learn a whole new set of rules about raiding, loot, and so on, and some of your current members may not be as comfortable with these rules as others. They might decide it's not for them while the other half of you are enjoying the new environment -- and then you'll face another decision.
Just remember that nothing in this game is permanent. If you change your mind later, you can always reform your old guild. You might not get everyone back, but once Wrath launches, you'll have a much easier time recruiting for any role. Just keep your Web site operational, if you have one, or exchange e-mail addresses so all your former members will be able to find out what your plan is once the expansion goes live.
I'd like to hear from some other small guilds out there. What are you planning to do?
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
6-09-2008 @ 11:28AM
mcclary said...
I like option 3 personally. Perhaps some of your former members that have moved on to bigger guilds can offer you some insight to help you choose the best new guild for you all.
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6-09-2008 @ 11:30AM
AK said...
This is a great article... I've been trying to figure out what to do b/c the 70s in my guild (all four of them) want to run Karazhan and I keep telling myself and them that we will find new members. Most people on my server are already in a guild so its very hard to recruit new members. Whatever I do, now I know people have the same problem with getting past the problem of not having enough members to get the guild going onto bigger and better things. I hope to wait it out till Wrath so that we can run some of the dungeons, get geared for some of the raids, and then start recruiting. I'm always recruiting, dont get me wrong, but it has become impossible for new people to join... most of the people who leave their old guilds are going to bigger ones. People just don't want small guilds anymore b/c of the fear that people are going to drop out. Hopefully Wrath will eliminate that fear (especially since tanks and healers are scarce.) I think Blizzard knows about the problems that guilds are having and I think we see some bigger and better things for guilds... both with the ten man raids and maybe even some recruiting hitches
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6-09-2008 @ 11:31AM
AK said...
Yeah... I like option three too =) Gives a chance for friends to stick together
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6-09-2008 @ 11:42AM
andy said...
Well, I'm not sure if my guild qualifies as a "small" guild. Our roster says we've got about 250 members. However, most people have 2-8 characters in the guild. We're getting to the point now where most of our "core" guildies who've been with us for a while (we've been around for over 2 and a half years) have multiple 70s, and we did our 2nd attempt at Kara this past weekend. We've lost a number of people to raiding guilds over time. They wanted more progression, while the core guild members wanted mainly to just have fun with friends. Some of those who have left have returned, either because they got some of the drops they wanted and had enough of the raid game, or because their new guilds weren't nearly as friendly or helpful as ours.
Now we're starting to explore Kara, and we do about 4 guild heroics a week. We also have a 5v5 "guild" arena team (which we split into 5 matches on Sunday, and another 5 on Monday, so more people can get in on the action), which is open to any lvl 70 in the guild. This is a great "testing ground" for people who want to practice their PvP skills, or just build up a small amount of arena points each week. We are (what I consider to be) small, casual, but we do progress. We progress at a rate that we feel doesn't leave anyone behind, and as a result, we keep the "best" of the players that join us. Some that leave might be more skilled in Instances or at PvP, but that doesn't necessarily make them a good guildie.
But I digress. Is it obvious I love my guild? Anyhow, this DOES relate to the above post, in that my advice for the author of the question is to hold on to his guild for as long as it makes sense to. It's hard to find people that you can really get along with and work well with in the varied settings in WoW, and even though it's a virtual world, real friendships are forged in those pixelated battlegrounds and quest runs. If you're getting to the point where you don't have enough members to do things you want to do with a guild (5-man instances, 10-man raids, group questing, pre-made battleground groups, etc), disbanding the guild should be the last option, and only to be used when the majority of your guild members are unhappy with the guild to the point where it's taking the fun out of the game. Other than that, either meld with another guild that's similar to yours, or build your team back from the ground up.
One article I read here gave me a good insight into a good way to recruit. I can't remember what it was called, but basically it suggested that instead of "/1 is now recruiting blah blah...", get 3 solid guildmates together, and PuG the other 2 for a heroic run, maybe purposely selecting people who aren't in a guild. You aren't guaranteed to like what you see in the instance (and I won't throw some BS percentage out there), but you might come across someone who knows their stuff, tells a joke you and your guildies think is hilarious, or gives you insight into a new way to handle the instance that you didn't know before. It's not the fastest way to build up your guild, but you'll lose a lot less people that way too (i'm talking about the people who seem to just permanently window-shop for a guild for whatever reason, joining one for a day or a week, then they're gone without warning).
ok, shutting up now, this is too long :)
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6-09-2008 @ 2:07PM
Fluffylongbottom said...
I like your idea andy. I'm at the other side of things; I'm about to hit 70 for the first time and I've been reading about raiding and karazhan and so on for a long time. I like the idea of it but I just don't know how to go about finding a small easy going guild since I'm VERY casual (took me a year and a half or more to get to lvl 68!). I'm on a european realm called silvermoon and it's got a lot of high-end raiding guilds.
I just wonder if I would have a better chance finding small Heroic/Karazhan focussed guilds like your one or the one in the article on a less progressed realm. Anybody have any thoughts on that? Sorry if I'm too off topic, ignore me if you must.
6-09-2008 @ 11:47AM
Datt67 said...
Talk about 'deja vu all over again'. I ran with a guild that sounds for all the world like K's for almost two years. When it finally disintegrated (for all the same reasons) a few of us moved onto a much larger guild, hoping to see more content (which we did) but couldn't help reminiscing about 'the good old days' every chance we got. Well - perhaps proving that you can go back again - within the last few weeks, many of the stalwarts of my old guild, who didn't make the transition and largely stopped playing, have not only re-activated their accounts, but have joined the new guild. It's like a reunion, only no-one looks any older! Catching up with old friends, running them through instances, and keeping up a raiding schedule sure feels like the best of both worlds and I certainly hope K can convince as many of his current guildies as are willing to make the switch, if that's what it comes to.
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6-09-2008 @ 11:50AM
Dave said...
One thing that jumped out at me in K's letter was that there's no scheduling going on.
I've found that, even in small, casual guilds it's important that people know at least a week ahead of time what raids are going to be run on which nights. It helps current members with planning and preparation--both in terms of real life (commitment scheduling) and in-game (getting consumables stocked, etc). It also helps a lot with recruiting to be able to say things like (in the case of my guild) "We run Gruul's on Friday nights, Kara on Saturday and (if not cleared) on Sunday."
We're very casual...there are no attendance requirements or anything like that. We're still struggling to get 25 to run Gruul's on a consistent basis (even with a guild alliance). But we have fun and when we do run things, we generally do pretty well. So adding a little bit of structure probably wouldn't destroy the casual nature K's guild currently has. And it might help get the core group to grow a little more before Wrath.
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6-09-2008 @ 1:05PM
Theserene said...
'I've found that, even in small, casual guilds it's important that people know at least a week ahead of time what raids are going to be run on which nights.'
This is VERY true. Our Kara runs are always scheduled a week in advance so that people know what is going on, how much time to set aside and how to prepare for it.
6-09-2008 @ 11:52AM
turkeyspit said...
Do you want to see newer content, or have fun with your friends in Kara? Answer that question, and you will then know what to do.
Incidentally, just because you stopped being guildmates, doesn't mean you can't all get together and run Kara each week. Most guilds focusing on T5/T6 content don't have "official" Kara runs each week. Time permitting, you could find another guild, see more content and still have fun running Kara with your buddies (Friends Lists exist for a reason)
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6-09-2008 @ 11:56AM
Contrary said...
Good article. I'm a member of what used to be a small guild of about 8 close friends aspiring to put a Karazhan group together. We went out and recruited a couple people to fill the 10-man group and right when we were ready to start raiding, our main tank and healer (a real life married couple) suffered a crisis in their real lives which forced them to go on an extended hiatus from the game.
Not long after they left, the guild leader and I began leveling our alts to be a tank and healer for the guild. But it wasn't enough to keep our friends with us...slowly they began drifting away to new guilds, in search of heroic/raid groups.
It's just me and the guild leader now. We chose the 'Wait it Out' option, hoping that our friends will be back when our main tank and healer return, knowing that our small core group would be all we need to see plenty of end-game content when WotLK arrives.
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6-09-2008 @ 1:01PM
Chris said...
That sounds sad dude - being in an active guild makes the game so much more enjoyable!
6-16-2008 @ 7:36PM
Contrary said...
It wouldn't make a difference for me. My play times don't allow me to raid anyway, since no one raids in the morning/early afternoon. I work during server prime time.
6-20-2008 @ 11:50AM
Contrary said...
It wouldn't make a difference for me. My play times don't allow me to raid anyway, since no one raids in the morning/early afternoon. I work during server prime time.
6-09-2008 @ 12:04PM
Deer said...
I feel our guild is going to choose option number 1 and wait it out. This will take its toll on us but as i have seen in the last 2 weeks is an increase in numbers coming back.... not sure if this is the beginning of the pre expansion lull or what ... but it seem older members are deciding that the end game is getting to a point where the prior friendships and Chemistry that you mentioned are more meaningful...whether the end game is getting boring or they have capped out where they can go ect ect.
As I understand exactly where the Casual guilds in this exact situation come from, I wish all others goodluck in your decision.
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6-09-2008 @ 12:11PM
Dakhelmet said...
I am the leader of a small guild, also in Llane and we are trying to reform from heavy losses as well. Look out for Wispirella from the Noble Einherijar, maybe we can work out some runs.
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6-09-2008 @ 12:48PM
Dan said...
I was recently a Class Leader in a similar guild. We had Kara on farm, occasionally attempted ZA, but could get no further due to lack of people. The other problem was that even on scheduled dates we often couldn't get raids together.
What we ended up doing was disbanding and all joining 25-man guilds. While it was a sad day when we split, in the long run it has really been beneficial. Due to the fact that we were all good-geared and skilled players, we got into good guilds, and are now seeing SSC/TK content, as opposed to just repeatedly running Kara.
There are often too many guilds on a server to make recruiting viable for smaller guilds who aren't onto 25-mans yet, so joining one of the guilds who is would be the best option for you in my opinion.
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6-09-2008 @ 12:50PM
Unmei said...
Even if his guild is small has he ever tried approuching guildless lowbies at around lvl 40 when they first get their mount? helping them out. You'd be surprised at the untapped market.
oddly enough I see alot of flaws in idea #3. Being a GM of a small guild that is struggling to even reach Kara it tough work. No shit leadership is hard, but I made it part of my mindset that I really wanted to experiance warcraft and not feel like i was riding on the coattails of another guilds success.
I know everyone in a raid plays there part. And there is no i in team but that's just how I view it. If I don't start with that guild from day 1, then what's the point?
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6-09-2008 @ 1:03PM
Theserene said...
Our guild hit that point about a year ago.
What I did was completely refocus the guild and advertise it on the realm forums as a casual guild with an interest in visiting the old (pre-BC) content.
I never spammed trade, pretty much all of my recruitment has been via realm forums or word of mouth from joining PuGs and showing we are mature friendly players.
Now we are a healthy number. Most of the comments we get via recruitment are people saying how refreshing it is to see a non-raid guild advertising on the forums. For the casual player it can sometimes seem like guilds are only for PvP or end-game. Be the one that stands out :)
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6-09-2008 @ 4:20PM
Hurode said...
This is a great way to recruit members. Make posts on your realm forums advertising that you're looking for casual players to do some light endgame raiding and dabble in other fun content. PUG HEROICS - this is something I stress. I started a lowbie guild with some friends and we'd get 3-4 people then LFG for 1-2 more to pug with, and if they were guildless we extended the invitation. We did eventually collapse (due to all of us wanting to work on mains rather than alts) but the pug method of recruiting works great.
6-09-2008 @ 1:06PM
Lisa Poisso said...
Why not keep progressing? It sounds like you've already recognized the need to be just a wee bit more organized on getting together for nightly activities. If you all really enjoy one another's company -- and it sounds as if you do -- set up some forums and make dropping by every day to chat and see what's up for the evening part of your daily routine. You can do regular heroics ... re-organize Kara ... meet a few new people naturally along the way to round out your ranks ... work towards ZA ... And any time you're free, dip your toes into BGs and even some Arena teams to give you a fresh insight into the game until the expansion. It really just takes a quick message: "Hey I want to run HeroicX tonight at 8. Who's in?" You'll find the momentum gathers fairly quickly when you play with guildies you enjoy. Good luck, and have fun!
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