Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
A few weeks ago, my first and most important suggestion for casual raiding guilds was to find a committed raid leader. These days, however, good raid leaders are even rarer than good tanks. The author of this week's e-mail asks, What do you do if your guild doesn't have anyone willing to be the RL?
Dear Scott,
My greatest issue, however, is one that even after all this time, not even I have been able to resolve. A few months ago, we were forced to terminate the Raid Leader for our guild for several reasons. The biggest issue, though, is that on multiple occasions, he failed to show up for raids without notice, which we forgave and ignored. Unfortunately, the last time this happened, we learned he had actually been playing his Horde character on another server, running Kara with his other guild. Quite a slap in the face, and well--to me, a definite expression of his disinterest in his position as our RL.
Initially, our Assistant RL and I, along with the officers of the guild, determined that we simply allow the position of RL to be a casual one and not actually have ONE person. As a casual raiding guild, we were quite sure it wouldn't be necessary. Golly gee gosh dern omgz wtf was I thinking?! Over the course of the last few weeks, the role has fallen to me (I wear several hats already, and generally I'm ok with that), but of all the hats I am most uncomfortable in, coordinating boss fights and running the raid in progress is my least favorite. I am organization, communication, strategy. Sometimes I need a break from raiding and since October, I've missed exactly 9 runs of the 2 per week we do. My best friend and Asst. RL is also an officer and helps me do a good bit of management within the guild. She's my right hand when it comes to getting things done, so she stays pretty close to the burn-out monitor, as well.
To date, we haven't been able to really pin-point someone we know will fall into the category of RL, whom we know will take the position [. . .] What I wonder is if you've encountered guilds with this similar situation and if so, are you aware of how they were able to resolve it? [. . .]
Kindest regards,
Eva,
Winding Path of Stormrage
Eva, I'm sorry to say that there's no easy answer here. Raiding guilds of any size or temperament live and die by those who lead them. I certainly sympathize with your desire to share this burden, however. Being the guild leader and the raid leader can put you in some very awkward circumstances, because what's best for the raid isn't necessarily what's best for all guild members. It can lead to tense and difficult decisions.
For instance, say you have a tank who's very enthusiastic but who just doesn't have the right gear for Zul'Aman, which can be quite unforgiving for those in pure Tier 4 gear. He's been trying his best to get better gear. He shows up for every ZA run in case you need him and he always gets left behind. As the raid leader, you can simply tell him to keep gearing up. But as the guild leader, you want to give the guy a chance to prove he has what it takes despite his gear. Other officers in the raid just want a smooth run without wasting time. What do you do?
Like you, I've acted as a raid leader on many occasions, but I can't say I ever enjoy it. And that's why. But even an RL who isn't a GL can feel those pressures, and the job itself comes with a hundred different frustrations. So it takes a special individual to do it well, and those who are willing to try are few and far between.
Now, in your case, you might consider your old RL. It sounds to me like the guy was just burnt out. If he didn't have to lead in his other guild, the thought of running Kara and only worrying about himself must have been quite appealing. The way he ditched you guys without notice was rude, I'll admit. But if he wanted to come back after taking a break, he might be your best option, at least in the short term.
The way I see it, you only have two others. The first is to recruit one. This is very difficult. Some say it's impossible to recruit a RL, but they are out there. Typically they are hardcore raiders who are sick of the strict schedule or maybe the unfair loot policies of their current guild. They want to raid in a more relaxed environment and they want to take on more of an active leadership role.
My guild is lucky in that we have a number of people who are willing to do it when necessary and they are all good at it (except for, perhaps, myself . . .). And yet, even so, we've had people join us from hardcore guilds who immediately want to step in and help out leading raids -- and we aren't even asking people to do that. So take heart: These people exist.
You must treat this differently than any other recruiting you've ever done. You have to be up-front about exactly what you're looking for: a raid leader who will be responsible, dedicated, and patient. You have to specify exactly what nights and what times you need this person, although you must be willing to change your raiding schedule specifically so your new RL can be there as much as possible. And you must be willing to submit to their wishes in certain aspects of your raiding policies, so specify what you're flexible on and what you're not.
This person needs to do more than just fill out an application. You should interview them and get a feel for how they would mesh with your members. Do they strike you as the kind of person your members would respect? That's really what it's all about, after all: If your members don't respect your RL, you won't get much accomplished.
I said you have two other options, and here is the second: Groom one of your own members to take over this position. Open the position to anyone who wants it, regardless of how long they've been there or what position they hold within the guild. Hopefully you'll get a few volunteers. Let each of them take a turn leading a raid, and see who can take the pressure, who can make the tough decisions, who can earn the respect, and who can't.
A long time ago my guild had a laundry list of requirements for gaining ranks that we've pretty much done away with. One of the old requirements for leadership positions was leading a couple of raids. Most people would rather stab themselves in the eye with their car keys than do that, but we made them anyway. I thought it was a good idea because it was a chance for people (a) to try a new role, to see if they liked it and were good at it, and (b) to know exactly what our raid leaders had to go through so they would cut them some slack in the future.
It's hard to predict who will make a good RL. We had a member of our guild who was pretty quiet back in the pre-Burning Crusade days. He came to raids, did his job, and didn't complain. But then he switched his main to a Resto druid in the expansion and wound up being our only Resto druid for a long time. He was also really good at healing. I think those two things gave him confidence and he started to take on a much more active role, volunteering to do the healing assignments and helping to communicate other crucial information to the raid. I never would have pegged this person as a leader a year ago, yet today I'd have no problem with him leading a raid solo. So you just never know!
In any event, now that your guild info and your predicament have been made public in this column, maybe someone out there will contact you. I wish you luck!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider coverage of raiding, see our raiding directory.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
5-12-2008 @ 11:11AM
foxfyr said...
Hello to my old guild in AC2!!!
Foxfyr
Victorious Secret
Eitrigg
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5-12-2008 @ 11:18AM
blackwolf675 said...
I played both AC and AC2 - my friends and I still all have fond memories of the game and swear we would go back if Turbine upgraded AC to even just AC2 graphics.
All the nights portal hopping across Dereth, running tuskers and Virindi through the Direlands - comming home to Baishi to hang out and relax.
*sigh*
Blackwolf Majik (sword/life/item)
Morningthaw
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5-12-2008 @ 11:20AM
Jasperwind said...
Stop spamming! :O
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5-12-2008 @ 11:29AM
Sydera said...
I would be more in favor of option two, promoting a raid leader from inside. The suggestion to try several of your raiders is an excellent one.
My guild is a raiding guild, and our 25-mans are led by one person, and the 10-mans are led by a hodgepodge of members and officers. In a pinch, any of us could lead the farm content. That's a huge advantage and can keep your RL from being burned out.
Hint: let the women lead too. They are just as capable, although they will take longer to win the respect of some of the men they'll be ordering around.
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5-12-2008 @ 12:18PM
Greta said...
Wow, I can't believe you would even assume that women need to be 'let' into leading positions. If you actually read the article it looks like the guild leader and the assistant raid leader are females who seem to have *gasp* stepped out of the kitchen for a few minutes to play WoW.
5-12-2008 @ 12:48PM
Sydera said...
Wow Greta, you took that totally the wrong way! I'm a woman who leads raids, and I know first-hand that the boys are very hesitant about this. Maybe I didn't phrase it well, but I did notice that the raid leaders being talked about in the article were all men. Eva, the guild leader in question, didn't seem to be considering leading the raids herself. And, I suppose, who knows what Eva's real-life gender is!
Maybe I have a chip on my shoulder about this, but I do notice that when women lead, they have to work very hard to do so. I also recruit for my guild, and the second I invite someone onto vent to talk about joining, they have a noticeable--either favorable or unfavorable reaction--to my clearly female voice. I think it's good to recognize the male dominance in this game and work against it. Even my own guild had to be pretty much coerced into appointing an equal number of male and female officers.
I just thought that maybe the guild leader in question hadn't even thought of appointing female raid leaders, as most guilds don't.
5-13-2008 @ 2:00AM
Lottomannen said...
"Even my own guild had to be pretty much coerced into appointing an equal number of male and female officers."
I would appoint an equal number of competent people. Promoting because of gender is seldom a good idea, regardless of the male/female ratio.
5-12-2008 @ 11:29AM
Rob said...
Yeah i agree it will be very difficult to find a RL from the milieu (masses). I think your only bet is telling the guild clearly what you need, and ask people to give it a shot. At some point you shouldn't need a RL for Kara if everyone knows it by heart. But the nature of casual guilds somewhat precludes that.
What makes a good RL? Someone who isn't afraid to chew out people, or otherwise demand performance. Someone who knows the instance inside and out. Someone who has played the various roles (dps/heal/tank). Someone who can handle a leadership position. Typically a RL will be in charge of organizing the raid, determining loot systems, organizing the raid groups, making sure people have appropriate buffs (to some extent), marking the mobs, explaining the boss fights.
Anyway now that there is some idea of what you need you can hopefully find that person. I think after a while people who have been in the game want a shot at something new, this would be a good opportunity for them. It also helps young adults try on some leadership responsibilities. Anyway good luck.
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5-12-2008 @ 11:46AM
Tinwhisker said...
Very true, the RL is often times the 'bad guy' and should be comfortable with this. People are going to be mad at the RL.
A good RL is not everyone's friend. RL's make decisions that are best for the raid. The tank who can't hold agro over healing might be the greatest guy on earth but the RL should be willing and able to tell that person that their level of play isn't good enough to raid.
And while the GL should be friends and a good leader, he should also back the RL up. If the RL has good reason to not let some players raid the GL shouldn't undermine that and push those players back in. It undermines the RL position and then why have it at all.
Of course, neither should the RL have /gkick priveledges. ;) Balance of power FTW.
5-12-2008 @ 1:27PM
rick gregory said...
Good points, as are Tinwhiskers'. But!...
You can tell people they're not up to snuff without 'chewing them out.' and I think you should. Being an ass about things ("You suck") just adds tension and you can say the same thing in a more positive way.
A few things the officers need to do:
1) Make sure the raiders understand the gearing requirements for whatever they're going into. Someone can still suck with epics, but gear gives capabilities. Help them succeed by making sure they're know what it will take to be prepared.
2) Back up the RL. Don't overrule them on who can go to raids, don't let people get the impression that they can come complain to an officer and have the RL pressured or overruled.
3) But DO keep in touch with what's up in raids... how the person is, whether they're being fair in who they take and not favoring friends, etc.
4) Groom 2 RLs. Having only one is asking for trouble. Unlike an officer's role a RL has sscheduled time demands. At some point, they might just want to take a break. Or perhaps not RL anymore. Have someone in the guild who can step in.
5-12-2008 @ 11:36AM
Tinwhisker said...
The position of 'Raid Leader' cannot be filled by a 'casual' player. Even though your progression may be slow and casual the person who leads you cannot be. The RL must be knowledgeable on nearly all aspects of play and either have previous experience with the fights or willing to invest the time to read about and study them.
Of course, neither can a hardcore control freak effectively lead a casual group. You can boast about your members all you want but I guarantee that a someone in T5 or T6 taking a step back to play casually for a while and lead your raids is going to quickly become frustrated with your group unless they have the patience of Job.
On that note, Scott makes a point about recruiting someone who is frustrated with their current (more progressed) guild to lead your raids. Bad idea! If this person is already frustrated with loot/progression at higher levels, your slower progression is likely to up their frustration and not solve it.
Recruit from within. Take a look at the hardcore players within your guild and give them a shot. If the GL is the best candidate for RL then it would be best if that person steps down to the RL position and a new GL is found. (Scott is right that these two positions require different things and should not be held together.)
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5-12-2008 @ 12:54PM
Rob said...
I actually somewhat disagree with the notion that a T5/T6 geared person who wants to go back to a casual guild and become RL wouldn't be the ideal candidate. If they are willing to take a step back and run T4 content then that's the best thing IMO. Ideally you'll want a RL who's actually done the harder content so the raid isn't completely lost once you manage to show up to gruul.
And by the way, Gruul isn't all that hard, i encourage any kara guild who can field 25 people to do it. My casual guild won't do it even though they have 3 kara teams. "not ready for it". Pff.
Lastly, all my RLs have been women. So perhaps they are the ideal candidate, willing to take responsibility, etc.
5-12-2008 @ 8:42PM
Tinwhisker said...
Rob, I was actually directing that more at the guild in question. I'm probably jumping to conclusions here but it seems to me that the majority of the guild/raid is not putting forth the effort required to move past their current point.
Further down DavidC explains the idea more clearly when he suggests that a good RL might see that the guild has been stalled at the same location for a very, very long time. At this point it becomes clear that the real obstacle to progression may be the raiders themselves.
5-13-2008 @ 7:32AM
Chri said...
I disagree.
I am an officer in a casual raiding guild. Our current raid leaders (we have 3 so we don't fall apart if only one can come to the raid) were all recruited straight out of hardcore guilds - albeit not straight into a Raid Leader position.
Yes the progress is slower, but I think our Raid Leaders gain something else from being in our guild - a more friendly forgiving environment, less demanding raid times and a ton of appreciation and respect from our members.
I would recommend keeping an eye out for "1. [General] LF casual raiding guild" and talk to those people. Ask them about what kind of guild they're looking for and what kind of raiding they've been doing. In 5 minutes you'll know if they're worth having on your team and be upfront about your guild and your progression. Be honest!
Then promote from within when they have gained some respect/visibility in the guild. If they have what it takes to lead, it'll be apparent from the first raid/vent experience.
Good luck. There are great players out there.
5-12-2008 @ 12:11PM
DavidC said...
I agree with the article that it's not good having the GL be the RL ... they *are* different roles with different mindsets, and you would be hard pressed to find somebody that does both very well.
The real issue is the characteristics that make a good Raid Leader are generally in direct opposition to the characteristics of "casual guilds". (And by casual, I mean casual in mindset, not the number of days in a week you raid).
Raid Leaders are generally people that are motivated to beat the game, and are good at figuring out what is wrong, and what needs to happen to fix it. That doesn't always sit well with *casual* members.
I remember trying to be an RL for a "RP Guild" that wanted to raid, but still be casual. Just me posting that we were going to try to form a "core" group of the more serious members to help carry the not-so-serious members caused a couple of not-so-serious officers to take a break from the game. I ended up leaving shortly after that.
Why? because it's one thing to progress slowly cause people are trying their best ... it's another to progress slowly cause people don't care about progression. If your hired on to help the guild see new content, you better be willing to support the Raid Leader.
Basically, people have to come to terms with reality. WoW is a game of numbers. If you want to down Boss X, you need to have A, B and C. The Raid Leaders job is to define what A, B and C are ... and it's the guilds job to bring A, B and C to the plate.
When A, B and C are *reasonable* yet are NOT provided, then the Raid Leaders get burnt out real fast. Raid Leaders are Driven to beat obstacles ... but when the obstacle is *really* the guild members, the only way to beat that is to change guilds.
Some guilds are just not going to ever see much, if any, new content because they are not willing to have a "serious" mindset. Which is fine ... accept who you are and enjoy the game in the limited scope that YOU defined.
But if your guild is lackadaisical in it's mindset, then for the love of God, don't bring on a Raid Leader and tell them you want to progress. Your just wasting the life of the Raid Leader by falsely leading them on.
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5-12-2008 @ 12:18PM
Cailleach said...
Why say raid leaders have to be the one to chew someone out? Hasn't anyone ever heard the saying Praise in public, correct in private'? We've managed to keep raiding (at about the same level as the OP) since the good old ZG/MC days, and I've heard folks yelling at other folks on TS or in chat ONCE, and that person was asked to shut up or leave.
Firm, yes. Mean, no. You can tell anyone how to improve without demeaning them. Heck, I've gkicked members without demeaning them. You want to find someone with the knowledge of the instance, the understanding of different classes, the will to put in research time, and the MATURITY to keep his/her cool.
It sounds to me like the OP has that sort of guild. I agree that promoting from within is the way to go. In the short run, let the GM keep being RL for ZA. Farm Karazhan and draft folks to try leading the raid. It will be a way to ease folks into the position. You may find people who want the job aren't tempermentally suited, and those who might start out reluctant end up loving it. Once you get some folks who are capable and enjoy it, move them up into a rotation for ZA with the current raid leaders. Soon enough you will have one or more good raid leaders who are trained.
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5-12-2008 @ 12:46PM
Leifo said...
A group of 4 of us leveled together every Monday night. One thing that worked well recently for the group was to elect a "captain" every week. That person would be responsible for deciding what instance/quests to run, finding a 5th from friends or PUG, and generally either leading the run (marking mobs, deciding which strategies to use) or appointing someone to do the same.
We've since combined our group with a similarly group of about 5-10 casual raiders and been running Kara and ZA successfully. While there is really one or two RLs working our twice weekly raids, doing the same organizing + calling out the fights and markings, it's still a very similar system.
I suggest you introduce the role of captain, and have people volunteer to do it (first off by saying that you would NOT be doing it). You can still offer to raid lead -- say that you'll be available to run the raid real-time, mark the mobs, etc. -- but that will initially offload the organization and communication tasks from you to a captain. From there, you can then begin further encouraging other people to help you out... train someone on mob marking, for instance, or let them lead the first few bosses of Kara. That's a good way to mentor a few people into taking on the actual leading of the raids, breaks up the responsibility.
Finally, don't hesitate to tell people that you're burning out because of this and need to compartmentalize these responsibilities if the group is going to continue into Kara.
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5-12-2008 @ 1:40PM
Daimon said...
This is a good subject and can have several answers, but they are more try and error; test all the options at hand in a short period of time and see what's the best one you can use.
A very importan thing is that GL cannot be the RL, as before posted, the RL is the person in charge of the good raid function, therefore the boss, bosses never are liked very much (i'm one ;) ) because ppl tend to push to themselves and a good bosses look after the common wealth of the raid/company/etc. I used to be in a RL friends guild where the GL was a mere figure, didn't know how/when/why to do instances and I was the RL, all good until the ppl who didn't get loot complained about my (I gear guild progression over player, sry thats the way) "loot distribution" and he took over the RL, enough to say, total failure, massive drama, gquitting, etc.
Guild leaders and Raid leaders are like good cop/bad cop, they need to function that way or you won't get the desired outcome.
Another thing somebody say here once: Casual Raiders is an oxymoron; keep that in mind ;)
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5-13-2008 @ 6:20AM
superfrank said...
You need to have clear loot rules so that there can be no arguments about what goes to whom.
5-12-2008 @ 1:54PM
darian said...
The single most important quality a Raid Leader can have is their communication skills. How they handle themselves when things go well, when they don't, and when they've reached their wits end are all paramount.
Even the most patient and forgiving of raid leaders will eventually exhaust their mental resources. That is when the best raid leaders are separated from the rest. It isn't a bad raid leader that becomes noticeably irritated after hours of wiping, but it's an amazing one that can remain calm and even warm in such circumstances.
Responsibility, dedication, knowledge and patience are all secondary to communication. Your raid leader could show up hours before a raid, be perfectly prepared for all possibilities, know the ins and outs of every raid spec and the variations thereof, and have the patience of a saint, but if they can't communicate in a way that encourages and inspires even in difficult circumstances they'll ultimately be the catalyst for some very ugly drama.
You'll never find or groom a perfect raid leader, and so you'll have to make a compromise somewhere (knowledgeable, dedicated, responsible, patient; pick three). Whatever you do, don't compromise on communication.
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