Paradigm shift
I know that Mike speculated that the changes to Warsong Gulch might not have helped, but I have a dissimilar experience. The important thing to remember is there has to be a complete change of attitude because it's no longer possible to turtle. Yeah, I know that people have been groaning about the continued turtling. They're wrong. That's because when the Focused Assault debuff is on, there's absolutely no way healers can keep up the flag carrier. In some of the games that I've participated in, players going after the flag were still concerned about the healers and wasted time burning them down or crowd controlling them. One word: don't. Ignore the healers when the debuff is on. Unless they have nine guys spamming heals on the flag carrier, it will be next to impossible to keep up a flag carrier with the debuff on, even more so with Brutal Assault. Ever tried healing through an enraged raid boss? Or maybe Gruul at 20 grows (who even lets Gruul get to 20 grows?)? It's sorta kinda of like that. Enjoy.
No more excusesThe problem with Warsong Gulch post-Patch 2.4 isn't the game design anymore. It's the players. If you're still having hours-long games with the changes, you have idiots playing on the field. That's the only explanation. There are no more excuses for long games now. 45 seconds after the flag is picked up, it can be tracked on the map. You don't need Hunters, Druids, or Priests using Mind Vision to find out where the flag is. It's right there. You know where the flag is. If your team isn't going after it, that's player error, not game design.
The early tracking and the debuff changes everything. Even if the flag is dropped -- and I've seen players try to get rid of it by passing flags or dropping it and picking it up again -- the debuff stays. In fact, if a flag is returned and the team doesn't cap, when the returned flag is picked up, the carrier will automatically have the debuff. As long as both flags are held, the debuff timer keeps on ticking. This works extremely well because some players stealthily camp the flag spawn just in case the flag is dropped. These players won't get very far because aside from the increase in damage taken, movement is also slowed.
Yes, there will be games that will take a long time, specially if teams are evenly matched and flag carriers are burned down before they reach their respective bases. But that's fine. That means it's a good game. It means you've gone into overtime. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, those are probably the best kind of games. Exceptions aside, most Warsong Gulch games should hardly extend to an hour now. If they do, it can only mean one of two things: a) an epic battle with competition so intense that flag carriers never make it across, or b) people need to learn2play WSG.
Is it a perfect solution? Probably not. Many of you posted your ideas on how to fix Warsong Gulch, but the changes make the Battleground much more bearable now. What's important is to keep the objective in mind. If this isn't on focus, you'll have a frustrating time on any Battleground, not just WSG. People fighting on the road in Arathi Basin; people going for the flags instead of the towers in Eye of the Storm; and well... everyone else diddling around in Alterac Valley.
In this new paradigm, roles will necessarily shift somewhat. Whereas having healers stay with the flag carrier throughout the entire time they held the flag used to be a sensible strategy, it's no longer as tenable in the new Warsong Gulch. In fact, in the new design, healers should be playing a more offensive role because the game becomes less hide and seek and more seek and destroy. This means healers need to shift to offense once the debuff is applied or near application. Why? Because you need to keep your offense going. Your assault, needless to say, should come as a deluge and not as a trickle. A healer on offense keeps the pressure on the opponent because the assault lasts longer. Whoever has more on assault the moment the debuff is applied will win. If the debuff is on, ignore the healers and focus fire. Flag returned. Score.
Healers on offense used to be a luxury in old Warsong Gulch games because healers needed to be with the flag carrier to ward off retrieval attempts. Now, however, if the debuff is applied, healer efforts on the flag carrier are going to be less efficient, more wasteful, and ultimately, futile. The best defense, in my experience so far, has been a good offense. And by offense, I mean keeping a few DPS classes with the flag carrier to burn down retrievers before they get to your flag carrier.
Healers can go on offense with more efficacy than staying on defense, which has been the norm. The idea is to keep your offense alive just long enough for them to burn down the opposing carrier. Offensive dispels become even more valuable, removing key buffs such as Power Word: Fortitude or Power Word: Shield. If a Mortal Strike effect is applied on the flag carrier in conjunction with the debuff, they go down so fast it isn't even funny.
It also becomes more important to try and stay close to the capping area because once Focused or Brutal Assault is applied, the flag carrier won't be able to travel far. It's entirely possible for a lone DPS class to burn down a carrier because of the debuff. Nobody wants to be in The Curator's shoes while he's Evocating. A 13,000-point Pyroblast crit? Yes, please. This means flag carriers hiding in the Silverwing Hold tents or by the Warsong Lumber Mill saw blades aren't doing their team any favors once the debuff is on. In fact, the farther they are from the capping area, the better it is for the opposing team. This means less hiding and more fighting.
The new Warsong Gulch doesn't encourage turtling. On the other hand, the debuff is so good that I'm sometimes tempted to stretch the games out just long enough so that it applies. And that's even when I'm healing. Yeah, I know, I'm silly that way. The idea is to tunnel vision the flag carrier when the debuff is on. It's that simple. Blizzard has broken down the game mechanics into recognizable elements that put the game entirely in the players hands. With earlier map recognition, players can find the flag even without communicating with their teammates. With the damage debuff, no flag carrier can stay alive indefinitely. The new WSG gives players all the tools they need to accomplish game objectives. Everything else in between, well, that's PvP.
Zach Yonzon writes The Art of War(craft) while greedily rubbing his palms together in anticipation of Focused Assault or Brutal Assault appearing underneath an enemy's icon.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
4-03-2008 @ 4:53PM
Oblivion said...
/agree
Good post.
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4-03-2008 @ 4:55PM
Clem said...
You ought to post this on the official WOW forums. They are in total bitch mode over WSG.
Reply
4-03-2008 @ 4:58PM
David said...
Ok, that's your opinion, but it sure isn't mine. When games go on for 25+ minutes, thats nuts. In my opinion, I good WSG game should last about 10 minutes, and please, no more than 15. I've seen AV games won in much less time than the WSG games I've played recently as I go for my 30 tokens to get my epic mount.
And it is contributing to what I suspect may be AFK players- when its 0-2 for 10 minutes, I start to see people 'defending' the base but not doing much. That's frustrating.
I think having some kind of time limit would kill the turtling. Set it high- 20 minutes or more. That would still allow some turtling if people want to do it, in the beginning but make sure that people actually care the entire time the game was playing.
-D
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4-03-2008 @ 7:19PM
Den said...
How can you complain about a 25 min WSG when it is common for AB to go for 30 (standard 3 cap) and the new AV 20-40.
My experience of the games has been 10-20 min max - frequent caps. And a very small amount of turtling, even GY turtling (with the flag) isn't going to work anymore. Where as before (more so in raid vs raid) the other team hold it there forever.
4-03-2008 @ 11:11PM
Zach said...
I'm sorry, but if you don't even have the patience to commit more than 25 minutes to a game of Warsong Gulch, you're not there to PvP. You want to farm Honor? Go play AV. Honor is a byproduct of PvP, not the other way around. As casual as this game has become, it's disappointing to see people who don't seem to want to earn what they get.
10 minute WSG games only happen in 3-0 runs with premades vs. pugs. With the new queue system and new mechanics, I don't think that will be happening anymore.
4-03-2008 @ 4:59PM
Daniel said...
My post-2.4 experiences of WSG are actually really bad. I think it may be due to how my battlegroup played the bg pre-2.4. It usually ended up being a rush for the flag, then a mad dash back to cap it while we defend our flag.
Occasionally, yes, we got some turtling, but it actually wasn't that common. Usually people had the common sense to either get the flag back before the other side captured our flag, or to find the efc with rapid speed. These tactics meant WSG rarely went over 20-30 mins.
However, with the new Brutal Assault debuff these tactics are impossible. It is not feasible to rush the flag back when the fc goes down within seconds, and can't run away from the attackers. You claim we should have DPS bringing down the attackers, but with the debuff they can still easily bring down the fc before they die.
Overall, the new rules have actually dramatically lengthened WSG (it now ends up often going to 40 mins for me). I don't see why Blizz doesn't just take some pointers from other games (or even other BGs), and implement a timer or one of the many other fixes suggested by so many. This debuff just wasn't the way to do it imo. In fact, it seems like they've done the opposite of fixing it.
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4-03-2008 @ 5:17PM
Sean Riley said...
Count me in the middle. I've been playing a lot of WSG of late (trying to gear up in plate as I hit 40 as a warrior) and yet the games continue on for ages. I'm not yet confident enough to attempt a diagnosis of why.
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4-03-2008 @ 5:30PM
Irshalthra said...
I have been playing WSG since the patch and life has not been so great. BUT, I agree with Zach that the reason it hasn't been is due to people "not playing right". There is no need to turtle when the debuff is on - but people are doing just that instead of going after the efc. Go after the efc and pummel him - he goes down fast. I know - I go down fast when I have the debuff on.
Another BIG thing that keeps WSG going on for too long is the grinding for honor. If you aren't going for the enemy flag, helping the fc, or stopping the efc - you are prolonging the game.
I enjoy WSG and will keep playing, but would like to see mentalities changed to shorten the game up.
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4-03-2008 @ 6:00PM
Cetha said...
"No more excuses
The problem with Warsong Gulch post-Patch 2.4 isn't the game design anymore. It's the players."
yes, yes, yes and more yes.
4-03-2008 @ 5:31PM
Zeplar said...
What WSG needs is to give more Honor when you win. It's unacceptable that AV gives more honor when you lose than WSG and AB and EotS when you win.
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4-03-2008 @ 6:31PM
Milktub said...
Maybe I'll try WSG this weekend, in hopes it's better than AB.
Did AB after nearly a year away from battlegrounds ... my lord did the whining get to me. At 1800/1550 with two nodes locked up for each and a fifth swapping constantly, people were already lamenting "just give up, let them five cap."
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4-03-2008 @ 6:53PM
Blacksabre said...
Sorry, but people who don't necessarily play YOUR way...are neither idiots, or noobs, or even less competent than you. What they very well might be is inexperienced, or saddled with people who are.
You sound to me like the most recent useless hard core PVP player wanting to spout an opinion. Are you? Maybe...just like the idiots you speak of are a maybe.
Warsong Gulch is so patched and exploited that no one can honestly say whether it's even, or fair, or useless. What remains is no more than a simple choreography, which when done correctly, can produce a win.
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4-03-2008 @ 7:31PM
Den said...
I'm trying to find the part where he called people idiots and noobs, but for some reason I can't. Maybe that is cause he didn't.I'm guessing you are one of the people that spend more time arguing or telling people to give up cause we have lost in /bg then you actually do playing the game.
As some one who has xfered between battlegroups (more then once) it is amazing how much a factions mentality can vary. We are talking 180% polar opposites. Realistically it is the attitude of the players in your group that affect the outcome and how the game is played (yes I just stated the obvious, but you don't seem to realise it)
4-04-2008 @ 9:19AM
Richard said...
@ Den:
Took me 5 seconds to find this, and didn't look farther:
"If you're still having hours-long games with the changes, you
have idiots playing on the field."
Yeah, I'd say he just called people idiots.
4-03-2008 @ 7:23PM
David Whyld said...
To be honest, I don't really care if the problem with the new WSG is that the other players are idiots who don't know how to play it, it's still one long bore of a battleground. And short of doing premades (which I think should be banned from the game), there's not a whole lot you can do about the quality of the other people on your side.
An amazing win in WSG when you totally slaughter the enemy and end 3/0 up still leaves you with less honour than a loss in AV. That needs to be fixed. There definitely needs to be a timer on the battleground and while the debuffs are a step in the right direction, they're still not anything like enough. A debuff that kicks in after X amount of minutes and then gets worse after X more amount of minutes only does an excellent job of prolonging the battle, not shortening it.
For me, WSG has always been the worst of the battlegrounds. The others I do for fun or honour or just to pass some time, but WSG I only ever do when I desperately need the marks for some new gear. And my entire time in the battleground is spent either 'defending' the flag (i.e. stood to one side of the flag with shadowmeld on while I read a magazine and wait for the other side to win) or grinding honourable kills in the middle so I at least get *something* out of it.
Capture the flag? Why the heck would I want to try that? It only drags the whole thing out and it's too long and boring anyway.
If there was an option to quit the battleground after 10 minutes and let the other side win and just give me my mark, I'd take it every time.
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4-03-2008 @ 11:20PM
Zach said...
If there's anything I agree with in your comments, it's that the Honor awarded needs to be raised. WSG Honor is pitiful. Otherwise, people need to PvP, imo, and not complain about the length of the games. Personally, I have fun PvPing, even if it sometimes takes a while. I'm there to play the game, not to breeze through it.
4-03-2008 @ 7:45PM
Kanuris said...
Curious, could this warrant the return of PoM Pyro mages since they could effectively one shot Debuffed Flag Carriers?
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4-03-2008 @ 8:55PM
Dave said...
I'd have to disagree.
I think in your case you have it totally backwards. The players in your games are most likely idiots if this new change has done anything but slightly modify the turtle strategy.
yes, you can still successfully turtle. It was never about how much damage the flag carrier took since a proper zerg can always take out the single guy holding the flag. It's all about how quickly the team can react to the flag holder dying and picking up the flag and running off with it somewhere else.
Further, both teams get the exact same debuff at the exact same time.
Everyone knows where the flags are.
Is this going anywhere with anyone else? Both flag carriers tend to die at the exact same time. Both flags end up going back to the bases... and the "turtle" continues by neither team being able to actually capture a single flag due to the absolute lack of durability for a carrier that's in the base and ready to cap. You can't sit at the flag spot waiting to cap since almost anyone can come in and nuke most characters. If the other side has a proper offense going to get their own flag back, what kind of defense do they have that can hold up their own flag carrier? None!
It's a reverse stalemate in other words, at least as long as your players have any bit of intelligence on both sides. I've been in several turtles that may have gone on for hours with both sides being fairly unable to capture anything at all. It's far too easy for things to usually be 6 people on offense, 4 people on defense and if they zerg the flag carrier on each side, the carrier dies every single time and the only flag caps happen when one side completely screws up and doesn't recover their own flag when it drops.
This change fixed nothing, for the most part. The map still needs a time limit and if neither team wins, both sides get 1 mark and no bonus honor so there's no incentive to even attempt to turtle it. Right now, things are the same as they ever were. Turtle it long enough and you hope the other side gets bored or makes a mistake.
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4-03-2008 @ 11:39PM
Zach said...
I'm not so sure how it worked in your Battlegroup, but it was almost impossible to break a turtle pre-2.4 because a well-defended FC can be healed through any assault. There was no point FF'ing the FC because they could be healed through it and their DPS was free to burn you down. Assaults on turtles had to be spread because you had to focus on healers by either CC'ing them or FF'ing them first. That's why I'm saying that the turtle no longer works now. You can ignore healers, which was impossible pre-2.4
If your games are still extending to hours, it's likely that the teams haven't found the balance of offense and defense. This is why PvP -- actual combat and engagement -- becomes so important now. Crowd control, Intervene, etc. become key to defending carriers -- your defense is offensive. Your defense isn't about healing the FC but killing the retrievers.
Imo, it's probably just an adjustment period to the new mechanics. People are still playing with the old mentality. Furthermore, there's a period where the debuff isn't on... so people actually playing WSG with the intent to capture-the-flag should conceivably still capture it within the alloted time. Thereafter it's just positioning and who has the better DPS wave when the debuff appears.
4-03-2008 @ 9:19PM
mateo said...
Evenly geared matches, that's the next thing Blizz needs to implement. I read on their PvP site that the BG matchup system is in place and active, but it's clearly evident that the parameters are far too lenient. I don't think queue times are extraordinarily long anymore which is the excuse/reason they list on their site. Let the twinks duke it out with each other... and if they're finding that they can't get in to a BG fast enough maybe they'll rethink their decision to twink in the first place. As long as I can go at it with evenly geared players, I'm a happy Tauren. Bring back the fun in WSG!
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