Susana of Hyjal speculates about something I've thought about a few times before -- just what exactly are Blizzard's internal development tools like? Most games that have mapmakers can churn out new maps pretty rapidly, but we've had the same BG maps for years now, and only one or two per year since then. And even the created maps aren't fixed easily, apparently -- a few map tweaks on WSG would probably fix the turtling problem, but Blizzard instead is tweaking the rules to fix things. Just what is Blizzard using to make their game that they take so long with development?To be fair, the rules here are a little more complicated than most first-person shooters (since you can do a lot more than just shoot at each other), so obviously the maps would presumably be a little more complicated as well. But in the age when players have access to the Neverwinter Nights toolset and even the Forge on Halo 3, surely it's a little crazy that Blizzard takes months to release one map, when other great games can pump out whole packs of them in the same time.
Now, this is WoW Insider, so it's ok if you're a Blizzard apologist. It's fine for you to say "Blizzard has the biggest game in the world not despite the fact that they're so slow, but because of it," and it's fine for you to be a fanboy/girl and say you'd rather wait three years for a Blizzard-quality Arathi Basin than play a whole "Hidden Fronts" pack. And the truth is that when Blizzard does release content, they don't disappoint. But we're still left wondering just why, after doing this for so long and having so much practice at it, it still takes them so long to do it.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
3-20-2008 @ 5:06PM
Doffencrag said...
They should just grab a bunch of maps from the WC3 and WC3:TFT and translate it to WoW. The default maps were pretty balanced, imho.
And besides, who wouldn't want to bring the BG experience to "Turtle Rock", "Terenas Stand", or "Twisted Meadows"?
(OK, maybe just me)
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3-20-2008 @ 5:12PM
Ktok said...
It doesn't seem at all odd to me that an MMO would take this long to release new maps, but then again I've worked in software development for 11 years.
Players cranking out maps and companies making maps is not even remotely the same thing. There's a different level of QA that goes on, and a different set of responsibility should the maps fail or be horribly bugged in some way.
Also, thanks for pre-disregarding my post and any like it by calling anyone that doesn't agree with you a fanboy/girl in the body of your post. That's good journalism right there.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:18PM
Jinvasha said...
It annoyed me as well, but he's probably just playing devil's advocate so that we can flame him some more. I'm fine with that - I enjoy it when Mike gets flamed. It's almost like he's the whipping boy of the entire WoW Insider audience. :D
3-20-2008 @ 5:27PM
Eleazar said...
Opinions regarding WoW battlegrounds are serious business!
3-20-2008 @ 6:44PM
Calaana said...
You get used to the "I R BESTEST" attitude after a while... specially when they talk out their ass.
3-20-2008 @ 8:05PM
jtrain said...
Whoa, for a second there I thought I was reading the forums!
Seriously though, what's the point of this 'article' ? It's not
news, it's not informed opinion and it's not even wild speculation.
It's flame bait, plain and simple.
"Blizz sucks for taking so damn long to release maps, but if you
fanboys/girls want to defend them, go right ahead."
/thumbsdown
3-20-2008 @ 8:52PM
Jack Spicer said...
@jtrain
Welcome to WoW Insider, Jtrain! Obviously you've never seen the site before. I'll let you in on a little secret. Sometimes topics are created to start a discussion. I know, isn't it a brilliant idea?
3-24-2008 @ 6:54PM
Den said...
"Players cranking out maps and companies making maps is not even remotely the same thing. There's a different level of QA that goes on, and a different set of responsibility should the maps fail or be horribly bugged in some way."
So why on earth can you still wall walk in WSG after all these years? There are a host of flaws in the current BG maps that enable people to exploit.
3-20-2008 @ 5:13PM
Slayblaze said...
I've been wondering the same thing for quite some time now. I hadn't considered that it might be due to the development tools, but maybe you're onto something there. Surely Blizzard would know if their own tech was holding them back..I bet some of them played NWN too...they must know how easy it is to create custom maps. Even amateurs can do it after a few minutes of training.
I'm not sure I buy the idea of the "complexity" of the WoW Battleground maps in comparison to those of other games, maybe they are a tiny bit more complex but not enough that it would be an excuse for taking so long to come up with new BGs. I really think they just don't *want* any new battlegrounds maps for whatever twisted reason they have.
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3-20-2008 @ 7:32PM
imparush said...
a lot of people is unhappy with AV, so if they send more bg out there is not balanced well you know.
3-20-2008 @ 5:15PM
Gnarl said...
I'm going to have to agree with Dof ... some BG maps from the old WC games would be fun. Maybe more than 2 teams even!
As for why it is taking so long, just a theory, but maybe they are holding off any new ones for WOTLK so the new maps use the new mechanics (think siege engines). I have a feeling the environments that will be incorperated with Siege will be quite a bit different than what we currently have (mechinically speaking) and they may not want to put dev time into something that could have been alot cooler if they had waited to use the new BG system/engine.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:16PM
Jinvasha said...
I think Blizzard has addressed this before. Creating maps probably isn't the problem: making sure that the maps aren't frustrating to play on, totally unbalanced, etc., is what must take the majority of the development time. Example: You could slap together a map on the WC3 map editor in half an hour, but unless you play-tested it repeatedly and tweaked it continually, one side might have an enormous advantage over the other, parts of the map might be inaccessible, the flow of gameplay might not be smooth and hold up the game - there are more things to consider than just "making maps".
Moreover, the way PvP is structured now suggests that Blizzard doesn't want lots of different maps - the marks of honour system, namely. If we had ten different battlegrounds, we'd have ten different sets of marks to juggle.
The fact that there are still problems with the existing maps must make Blizzard even more wary of just cranking out new ones all over the place.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:48PM
Saiforune said...
Make it that all BGs award the same marks and give rep towards one specific faction. Anyone who had the justicar title pre-BG patch could keep it. Then they could add something new for the "New Faction". They easily combined the Aldor and Scryer in 2.4, why not make the factions that actualyl like each other be in one group. The Maps really do need to be fixed and more balanced, and the fact they are trying to fix the raids and whatnot before that is unacceptable considering how long the Bgs have been "bugged".
And Thank you Mike for calling anyone who likes WoW a Fan Boy/Girl. Really appreciate it.
3-20-2008 @ 8:34PM
leibowitz said...
"You could slap together a map on the WC3 map editor in half an hour, but unless you play-tested it repeatedly and tweaked it continually, one side might have an enormous advantage over the other, parts of the map might be inaccessible, the flow of gameplay might not be smooth and hold up the game - there are more things to consider than just "making maps".
I think you just described Alterac Valley?
3-21-2008 @ 8:55AM
Jinvasha said...
I was thinking the same thing even as I wrote it, but the point stands - would you want just one Alterac Valley or five different Alterac Valleys, all with different scenery? At least if there's just one I can steer clear of it.
Actually, I steer clear of lolvP altogether these days. It's turned into something of a waste of time.
3-20-2008 @ 5:17PM
matt said...
It could be an issue of bad tools, or a lack of good automated testing programs (i.e. find all holes/too-steep slopes/etc. in this map), or an issue with the terrain format, or whatever. And I'm sure their tools team is busy as hell.
The truth is, all of those problems could theoretically be solved by throwing more people at them: you there, fix these tools; you there, work on WSG for the next month. But even though they could clearly afford the employees (and have scaled up incredibly), it's quite hard to throw more people at a problem and keep your efficiency, quality standards, design focus, and institutional knowledge. There really hasn't been a game of this size before, so they're having to make up a lot of the processes as they go along.
All that said, I'm rather peeved that I can still Blink backwards in terrain that's been in since launch.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:20PM
SimpleSurvival said...
Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say.
This "argument" has the following form:
1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.
2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:24PM
kenney said...
Even though I am pre-disregarded, I ask you to apply Occam's Razor:
Which is more likely?
1) With massive financial and technical resources at their disposal, Blizzard is unable to do something you assert is easy
2) There is something about this architecture that makes it not easy
I know that comparing wow to nwn is pointless- nwn2 was designed to be easy for users to develop. It was a 3/4 cutaway that was essentially 2d because it had no meaningful z-axis. I don't have the 3D or Cad design background to know much about how hard it would be to modify a wsg map in maya or 3d studio, but I would guess that would be the better comparison.
You haven't established that you know ANYTHING that qualifies you to have any kind of an informed opinion about the magnitude of effort you are complaining about, and judging from the parallells you draw, I am assuming you have an extremely uninformed position.
Lord help me, I've been trolled by one of the bloggers.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:28PM
Angelus said...
Sure release a map every week. Split the player-base between 20 maps and see how long the queue time is for each one.
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3-20-2008 @ 5:31PM
Epiny said...
ince we are all guessing here my thoughts are lack of foresight. They didn't plan on needing to make new BG's as often as we would like. PvP was never WoW's focus. Had they of planned on that I'm sure they would have built in Map editing tools early on. I would assume that is the hold up.
It's not that you can't create a map editing tool. It's that they didn't make one from the begining and it's just not finicailly feasable now to divert their staff from other projects on it.
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