Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.If the wildlife in Nagrand didn't reproduce faster than rabbits injected with Viagra, one could accuse the genocidal Hemet Nesingwary, or even the Consortium (with their endless need for ivory tusks), of funding poaching on a massive scale. And of course, we would be the perpetrators, guilty of the annihilation of entire generations of species. But fortunately, those elekks, clefthooves, and talbuks never seem to become endangered. This week's e-mail is about a different kind of poaching, but one that is no less nefarious.
Hey. I have been reading your blog for awhile now and I am an officer in a small casual guild (66 accounts) that one day hopes to have some endgame on farm. The problem we seem to have is people just leaving with a stealth guild quit. When asked they normally say they left for a friends guild or something along the lines of "just wasn't working out." About a week later I see them in Shattrath with a guild tag of another guild that I know just poached them from us. I understand that it's their $15 a month but is there anything that we as a guild can do to keep them? We seem to lose one once a week.
This is really beginning to get on guild morale, and getting to the point where we have some people leveling from 60 and I am wondering if we will see them at 70 or if they will get poached along the way to one of the bigger guilds on the server that have progressed further into endgame. It has gone from having about 15 people on Saturdays to now to only about 8 people online. We were planning on doing Kara but we just can't get the people. I have been trying to recruit but I feel bad since I could just be poaching from another smaller guild. This is a low pop server so chances are I run with the same guild if not the same people that are poaching from us.
Xioyn, A-Cho'gall <Dark Covenant>
However, not everyone feels the same way I do. With the current state of Warcraft raiding, poaching is practically inevitable. There are only so many adequately skilled raiders on any given server, and with fewer people raiding every day, demand for them is high, particularly on a low-population server such as yours.
On top of that, there just aren't enough built-in reasons to stick with one guild. It would be great if Blizzard gave people better reasons to stick with their guilds. Guild banks were a step in the right direction as far as people feeling invested in some way. The possibility of guild-based attunements, hinted at by Tigole, could be another. But of course the other side of that coin would be losing members to another guild just because they've earned an attunement that your guild hasn't been able to accomplish. Guild housing could be a huge way for people to feel invested in their guild, but it seems to be pretty far down on Blizzard's priority list, just above collectively stabbing themselves in the eye with their car keys.
So where does that leave us? Well, recognizing that poaching is going to happen, you have two options: You can either blame the players who leave, or you can work hard to give your members reasons to stay. The only players that can be poached are players who aren't 100% happy where they are. Think about it: If you work for a certain company, and you absolutely love working there, corporate "headhunters" are going to have a very difficult time luring you away. On the other hand, if your boss is a jerk and they're paying you peanuts, it won't take much to get you to jump ship.
Xioyn, as an officer, it's up to you to keep all of your members happy and content to be right where there are. And unfortunately, in the long term, it's an impossible task. Even so, if people know that you're trying your best to help them achieve their goals, they are much more likely to stick around.
Do I feel guilty when someone comes to me from another guild under the circumstances I described above? Not a bit, and neither should you. The best way to recruit is simply to be a guild whose members have fun, and other people will catch on to that. That's not poaching -- that's just good leadership!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
3-10-2008 @ 11:10AM
Tatiyanna said...
From a guid member of a realitivly small causal guild with plans on end game. I can give this advice to leaders.
Make sure you know the expectations of all the members, work to ensure the greatest number of them are able to be meet.
If you have lowbies on there, make sure you have higher level members willing to help them out on quests or leveling when they get stuck with nothing but red/orange quests.
Be consistant, there is nothing worse in my mind then having one guild member ask for help and getting told no or cant do it for this or that reason and then having the same higher lvl, helping run lower lvls completly through quests to level them up. Looks as if favortism or "clicks" are in place and that will split the guild really fast.
The guild should be a in my mind, treated as a whole unit, with actions taken to better the guild as a whole.
Just my 0.02 and I could be wrong..
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3-11-2008 @ 12:08AM
Lilyana said...
Hiya
I've run our guild devotion on steamwheedle cartel for years now and we are currently farming bosses in BT.
We have a rule where we will never poach off another guild. Many have tried to poach from us but fail miserably simply because people believe in me and our guild.
You need to inspire, lead and above all let your people achieve. Its important to lead very well, be consistent in what you do, have rules that are logical and not egostical.
Have a strong back end website with dkp, forums etc when people log in. It provides a community where members can get to know one another. Ultimately be very picky about who you let join you.
People who join us have to be the right mentality. If I sense someone is just going to waste my time even a tiny bit I refuse them there and then.
So our guild is full of people of the kind of attitude which is set to achieve from the outset. Anyone negative in the guild who lowers morale is either kicked or given a good talking to.
This has been our 3rd year of success now as a raiding community then guild so those principles and reliable behaviour are what people look for in a guild.
Make them happy with:
-Reliability
-Consistent behaviour
-Rules which aren't broken
-Mature officers who take time to listen
-Stamping down on emo/drama
-Allowing people to make mistakes (we're human)
-Ultimately having a clear strong purpose
Its that businesslike security which will keep your members. They want to belong and also feel you are going places.
IMO its too late now for you to start making guilds that will "eventually do end game content" -its just not gonna happen for any guilds who aren't already in BT.
But Wotlk and 10-mans are another story. Why not specialise in those until WOTLK arrives?
Sorry if I seem outspoken but this is simple and realistic advice IMO.
Good luck with the future!
3-10-2008 @ 11:13AM
Asspigeon said...
I am the recruitment officer of a guild that is 6/6 SSC & 3/4 TK. Inevitably I have to poach raiders from other guilds to fill out my own roster because it isn't reasonable to guild newly minted 70s to raid Kael'thas. However, there is a difference between asking someone to drop their previous guild and having them apply of their own free will. I understand it sucks for the guild they are leaving but too many guilds means good players are spread out and progression is going to be slower for everyone. This is compounded if you are on a low pop server. If you can't beat 'em join 'em.
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3-10-2008 @ 12:13PM
jr said...
I think poaching is a necessary evil in todays WoW. Fact is there are way too many guilds without enough players to do even Kara without grabbing pugs. Also, there ware way fewer people wanting to raid anything more than Kara since its way easier, timewise, to pvp. Therefore, unless your in a guild that has BT on farm you almost have to poach to grow and fill out your roster for progression.
3-10-2008 @ 3:14PM
Schadow said...
@jr I think that poaching is despicable. We recently had a poaching attempt on one of our officers by people who claim to be friends of our guild leader. Fortunately, our officer chose to stay.
But the fact that people in another guild would attempt to poach from a friend's guild is appalling. Ethics have gone right out the door. Is progression really more important than friendship?
If someone runs with us and wants to join us, then we give them information about how they can apply. We don't solicit people form other guilds, and we certainly don't screw over our friends in an attempt to advance.
That may be why we're small, but isn't it a better way to be?
3-10-2008 @ 11:20AM
hypotensize said...
i was an officer in a guild until recently when there was some debates some Gquits and rejoinings ihtout the same amount of promotions given, and i know how this guy feels
my guild are atm 1/6 SSC, 2/4 TK and downed doomwalker yesterday (yay) and we have an ally guild on our server, Mighty Resort, who often find themselves in need of good dps or healers for their ranks. Since their 5/6 ssc and 3/4 tk ( and have been for about 7months now ) a lot of our newer members leave for them, when we ask the officers / GM's there they just threaten us with reports for harassment and statements that all members poached approached them :x
recently we've had our GM making accounst on their forums just to check on applications due to how severe its been before, we've also taken some members from them yes, but after said members had left they applied. these guys are comming once / twice a month and are taking up to 10 members at a time, which is annoying due to the fact its always just after we start progressing more :x
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3-10-2008 @ 11:31AM
PyroAmos said...
I've watched 3 guilds get poached out from under me, while trying to switch from T4 to T5 raiding, nothing you can do about it really... only thing I really learned is loyalty will screw you, if you get an offer to move on, take it, if they're asking you, they're proably asking other people in your guild, and it'll be to full of holes to kill gruul in a week or two. I unfortunatly stuck it out, believing people would be loyal and stick with us... they wern't. That lead to something like 4 mergers with other guilds that had the same thing happening to them, and when you add leftovers to leftovers, you get a steamy hot pile of dry pasta and cold pizza mixed together... long story short, it isn't pretty. On the up side, I got to be at 3 guilds first kills of Mag and 5 guilds first kills of loot reaver, 3 of which I was raid leader for, lol. After the last breakup I quit wow for a few months... now I just BG and post apps on T6 guilds app boards '4/5 T4 druid tank LF raiding guild, no vials' is the jest of it, and noone wants you without vials, lol. So, I do what Bliz wants ppl to do I guess... log on and play some FPS WoW (BGs) once in a while with my blank guild tabbard on (grey looks good on me), and play other MMOs for my real gaming.
P.S> 4/5 T4 Druid tank, best pre-SSC/Tk PvE gear with exception of a few Mag pieces LF SSC/TK raiding guild, no vials. Please no guild trying to go from T4 to T5, i've been that poaching road before, don't feel like getting my legs shot out from under me for the... I lost count how many times.
P.S.S> I still hate you for leaving Lax.
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3-10-2008 @ 11:38AM
Rainnajax said...
I am an officer for a smaller guild that is starting to raid (Kara cleared and beginning ZA). We have had several members join us just in the last few weeks. The most common complaint I hear is that the guildies just didn't feel that the guild they were in was a social, and that they didn't work together to get game tasks done. We are a strong guild that has a firm foundation in helping each other and in doing guild-based events together. We have a core group of regulars and many new people. We do not actively poach members because our Guild Leaders are very against it, but inevitably, after a run with us, many pugged toons ask about membership. Maybe we are just fun to hang out with, but we also work very well together and we do get alot of comments about our accomplishments. If a toon decides to leave their guild and asks to join ours, that is not poaching and we will accept them as a member. So, it is likely that maybe if you are seeing your ex-guildies in Shat with a new Guild tag that maybe they weren't poached but found a guild that was a better fit for that person. We have to be careful because many guilds dissaprove of poaching and take it very seriously.
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3-10-2008 @ 11:41AM
Yso said...
Hi.
To think this one step further:
If there is constant poaching from less progressed guilds, there is constant memberloss in the more progressed guilds as well and they won't make more progress that you do due to the high membervolatility.
I think your server really needs stability. And this is your opportunity.
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3-10-2008 @ 12:15PM
Corpzes said...
Im Joint GM of a t4 raiding guild and we never seem to have a problem with poachers or with people leaving for greater glory. I'm very lucky in the fact that all of our officers have leveled their toons with from lowbie to 70 with us and we have a fantastic sence of comradia within the guild. Before we was raiding we used to see a lot of people come and go, however there was always enough idiots (the good kind) spamming guild chat with useless conversation and generally looking out for each other in the push to get 70 and hit Kz (omg epix!) to keep people interested. Now we have about 20-30 decent raiders who have mostly been with us since the lower lvl's and have started to dip our toes in 25man content (gruuls our lil' bitch now)
My tips would be recruit more and keep gchat busy, All we did before raiding was recruit, recruit and recruit. People come, People go - the people that are most suitable for the guild stay, its keeping those guys there. We found we got most of our recruits from guild runs where we have 1 or 2 pugs - we'd have fun and those people would look to join.
Build that sence of comradia, get people to do stuff for the guild aswell as themselves and when you guys 1st down attumen - it will be one of your greatest gaming moments, you will have acheived it for the 1st time together and then the rest of Kz & beyond will surley follow.
Poaching isnt cool, if a guild needs to poach then its no guild to be in.
my 2 cents.
3-10-2008 @ 11:46AM
Olorin said...
I'm an officer in a guild about the size of yours. Our guild is currently 8 years old and has remained mostly intact through EQ, DAOC, SWG, EQ2, and now WoW. I'm sure this isn't a comprehensive list, but here are few things that we've found helpful.
1) Be clear on what kind of guild you are. Specifically, what is end-game for you? (Dailies?, lvl 70 5-mans?, heroics?, 10-man raiding?, 25-mans?, having a lvl 70 of each class?) Once you are clear on this, you can be clear on this to people interested in your guild.
2) Screen people heavily and make sure they have the same goals and playstyle you do. We usually don't fully accept totally new people as a member until 2-4 weeks after they apply. This isn't because we're hardcore - anything but. However, we're not going to be a good home for someone looking for nightly 25-man raiding and it doesn't help us or them in the long run if we're not a good match.
3) If the first words from someone in a PUG are "can I get a guild invite?" Don't do it. Maybe even boot them and put them on ignore.
4) If you are a casual guild, have a policy where all alts must be in the guild or untagged. You want the people behind the keyboard to identify themselves as members of your guild, not just the alt that happens to be tagged to your guild. (I know there is no way to officially police this, but stating it as a requirement up front says you aren't a "kleenex guild". If discovered after you've clearly set the expectation though, it should be a bootable/demotable offense.)
5) Depending on guild goals and size, look for a compatible guild and make an alliance with them. If Kara is a problem to field enough people, but 10-man raiding is important, find a comparable sized guild with similar goals and have the officers run some stuff together a couple times. If you're compatable, create a shared chat channel to communicate and schedule joint events.
6) Don't poach tagged people. You wouldn't want others to do it to you. Don't do it to them. General comments are fine - for example, posting on on the official forum for your server.
There are probably other tips, I've missed but I hope this is helpful.
/olorin
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3-10-2008 @ 11:57AM
Maliske said...
Seen this a whole bunch and im left thinking 2 things....Franklin was right when he said "the more you learn about human nature....the less you like it." And that gear past Kara should be "Guildbound" You didnt solo SSC and people should want you for you and not your gear.
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3-10-2008 @ 11:58AM
Cynra said...
I'm the guild master of a small, very casual, medium-roleplaying guild. As a guild, our only experience in raids is in Karazhan. We'll be entering Zul'Aman for the first time as a guild Tuesday. Many of my guys haven't done much other raiding, with a few notable exceptions. Therefore, the likelihood of anyone poaching one of my guys is low because - like most other "scrub" guilds - we've managed to do Karazhan together and little else. And, to be honest, the guild is fine with that.
On the other end of the spectrum is me and perhaps one or two other guildies. I'm not quite certain what experience those two have, but I'm 4/6 SSC and 3/4 TK. I'm appropriately geared and a somewhat decent healer. How those two combine to make me a popular commodity I don't know, but I've had guilds try to recruit me from my current guild in order to raid with them. While it's a bit of an ego-boost to know that people want me around, it's just poor form to do so and it irks me that some are persistant even after being told that I am guild master and have absolutely no interest in leaving my current guild.
Actively poaching from other guilds is loathesome. Yes, it's a popular practice and arguably necessary (feeder guilds exist for that reason, y'know), but - as many people noted - there is a difference between having that individual request for more information and deliberately going to a specific guild to snag raiders.
The thing to do is to cultivate an evironment that entices guild members to stay with their current guild tag. We had issues when we invited 70s into the guild that were friends of current guild members and having them up and leave shortly thereafter for other experiences. You can prevent that sort of thing from happening by ensuring that the right people join the guild. People looking for fast-paced, competative end-game content aren't going to be happy in a casual guild; if you recruit people like that, you'll end up losing them - which is a hassle when you turn around a week later and find that their spots are vacant in the raid.
We've actually had a lot of success with invitations for people in the lower levels (10-40). The people that level to 70 within the guild tend to stick with the guild longer than people who join post-60. They're more dedicated, forge more friendships, more interested in helping fellow guildies, want more involvement, and are less likely to leave when presented with the opportunity.
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3-10-2008 @ 12:00PM
Fordan said...
There seems to be some confusion about the word poaching. I view it as poaching only when another guild's leadership actively and specifically recruits people from your guild. If members of your guild apply to my guild without anyone in my guild's leadership asking them to, I don't view that as poaching.
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3-10-2008 @ 12:41PM
Grimmtooth said...
@Fordan
That is a matter of semantics.
As soon as a guild officer sees another guild's name under that person's name, it should be over, and the person that started it get talked to about the ethics involved.
Saying it's OK is something called "plausible deniability" in the sleazier corners of the universe.
3-10-2008 @ 1:31PM
rick gregory said...
@13 - why, if the person leaving the guild applied? Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to app to another guild unless they gquit first? It seems to me that if I want to app to another guild they should be free to talk to me. If you have an 'unguilded toons only' policy, fine, but how many people are going to quit their guild before apping to another?
To the emailer... I think the key point is to be clear on what you are and what you're not and to follow through. "We raid Kara every week..." Then make sure you DO. Don't oversell yourself - "we are serious about endgame raiding" when you're partway into Kara.
Most of the instance groups should be mostly guildies - if you have people running 5 mans together that builds camaraderie, if people are having to find PUGs a lot, the natural question is... what's this guild doing for me? I've seen people looking for herocis... and others want a heroic, but a different one. So, instead of doing one of the 2 as a group or doing both as a group, neither run happens or the PUG both.
And finally, don't let people keep alts if they leave. Make it so that if the main leaves, the alt leaves... that way they really have to LEAVE.
3-10-2008 @ 2:39PM
theRaptor said...
Uh no, there is nothing wrong or immoral with leaving an organisation you are a member of for another one. Targeting another organisation and luring its members away *with the knowledge that doing so will cause them to fail* is immoral.
3-10-2008 @ 12:06PM
Gimmlette said...
I don't poach and disapprove of the practice. My officers and I ask any currently guilded prospective member why they want out of their current guild. It's not enough to say they heard of us and our goals, like us and want to be a part of what we're doing. "If you're currently in a guild, what's so bad about it that you're thinking of leaving?" Answering those questions gives me an idea of whether you will bolt from my guild at the first indication of a bad day. You can't prevent guild hoppers, and they are out there. But your screening process for prospective members should weed out those who aren't a good fit to begin with.
Xioyn, how do the other officers feel? Is it just the lack of progression toward Kara that has guild members down or could it be something else? What are your guild's goals? Does everyone know them? Where does your GL stand on this? Is he/she aware this is a problem and affecting morale or has he/she effectively turned over the reigns of leadership to the officer corps? An active GL goes a long way toward an active membership.
It is hard to watch that toon you helped go from 16-56 reach Outlands and then decide to bolt when they PuG several instances because you don't have the personnel on to run them through. Does make you feel as if all your guild is is a leveling service. I would make sure you are screening potential recruits and examine what your guild's current goals are. If it's to raid Kara, are you running the instances necessary for key frags? Even if that means you, personally, have to run Durnholde 8 times a week, are you doing that? If the guild's goal is to raid once a week and have fun the other 6 days, what is defined as "fun"; snowball fights, guild dueling, hitting Crossroads?
You may not be able to save your guild. Recognize that as a possibility, particularly if you are on a low pop server. Guilds are fluid things and maybe you're going through a period of extreme fluidity.
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3-10-2008 @ 12:06PM
Green Armadillo said...
Quoth Scott: "Even so, if people know that you're trying your best to help them achieve their goals, they are much more likely to stick around."
The issue is that the people who are leaving want progress to be made at a faster rate than the rest of the guild is willing to support. Don't get me wrong, it's possible for actual player competence to get so bad that it becomes the limiting factor in progress, but usually it comes down to time - time farming, time reading strats, time in learning night raids practicing encounters. This, unfortunately, is not something most guild officers can do anything about. That guy you want to keep is valuable precisely because he spends more time. Unfortunately for you, kicking 90% of your membership to restructure your guild into something that can progress at his level probably isn't going to work out - players who are at a level to be the best in your guild are always going to be at least applicant level in some guild that's better than yours.
As an aside, attempting to start Kara at this point in TBC's life cycle is more likely than not a losing proposition. You're not going to get people who are in it for the gear, because they can get better gear by farming heroic 5-mans for badges once the new patch hits. You're not going to get people who are in it for prestige - they can farm the five mans and then leapfrog your guild, which isn't even raiding anyway, to join a 25-man guild that's actually moving. And, I'm sorry, but no matter how great you think you are, you're not going to get all that many recruits joining your guild just because they really wanted to be in a guild led by you personally. Maybe if you're on an EXTREMELY low population server with almost no guilds still working on Kara there's a niche, but more likely than not the prospective Kara raiders on your server are spread out over a dozen entry level guilds already, and your attempt to start a thirteenth just isn't going to get going.
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3-10-2008 @ 12:08PM
Milktub said...
People willing to be poached would leave any way. Either while your still working on Kara (who wouldn't leave the haunted house behind if promised a spot to play in SSC?) or afterwards and you're still in progression mode (wipe after wipe in progression or rolling in loot in farm mode?).
Maybe it's my casual mindset. I'm in the game to group and chat with people I enjoy grouping with, learn a couple different ways to take on an encounter. Loot is at the bottom of my priorities (though I do get that I need progressively better loot to see more content). Unfortunately, that means every now and again a guildmate that I really enjoy grouping with will jump ship for a guild that is progressing faster.
I'll never poach. My #1 recruitment tool is PuGging. As I go through a 5-man/heroic, I make note of who's good. Then I look at their guild. No guild? I'll whisper them to see if they're looking for a guild at the time. Guilded? I'll remember their name and try to run with them more, ready to talk to them if they end up unguilded.
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