Oh, I should point out, bads won't necessarily be bads forever. Experience plays a huge factor in increasing skill. Like 'Pal' mentioned, he/she can't win a PvP game to save their life. After gaining some PvP experience, that will probably not be the case anymore.

I dont agree with the notion of a "correct" spec. There are 3 specs for a reason. Its not 3 card monte, there's no wrong choice. You play how you play and other people might think you're wrong, just dont play with those people.

I think you've misinterpreted what I meant.

I didn't mean spec as a whole... say, choosing to be a ret paladin instead of a holy paladin. I mean the individual talents that are chosen in said spec. Having a retribution spec like 5/16/40 *would* make a player bad as they have skipped perhaps their most vital ability, Crusader Strike.

"Oh, I should point out, bads won't necessarily be bads forever. Experience plays a huge factor in increasing skill. Like 'Pal' mentioned, he/she can't win a PvP game to save their life. After gaining some PvP experience, that will probably not be the case anymore."

Well, I do kill people who are even worse than me occasionally (stand still and do nothing once I counterspell one of their schools of magic etc), but I don't think that counts.

"3 specs" - clearly you don't know much about specing.

Sure I COULD go to raids Discipline speced - but that would just be stupid, I'd suck as a healer, I'd pull agro all over the place and the talents I'd get out of disc wouldnt be relevant.

If someone showed up to a raid PvP speced, they'd be out. Each person has roles to fill and certain specs (and for any class there are MANY more then simply specing up 1 tree or the other) are much better for filling these roles then others.

I don't go do arena CoH speced because thats just stupid. Just like I don't go to raid PvP Disc spec - because thats even stupider.

If you want to play a meta-game where you deliberately handy-cap yourself thats fine - but don't expect other people to put up with it in a group situation.

errr @ thrush

Sounds like me. I'm usually head of strategy in any instances I run, either as PuG or with my guild. However, I have NEVER won a battleground. Ever. I try various strategies: stay with a group, work on defense, work on offense, pick off the weaklings, pick off the healer, etc. All for naught. I always end up in some situation where I end up all alone with either a group of players ganking me or stun locked by a rogue. It really sucks, and frankly makes me want to throw something through my screen. I'm a very cerebral person, so coming to grips with there being no "answer" really frustrates me.

Before being run through a dungeon, you should try it at least once in a normal group, that way you learn to play your class much better.

Yeah, I think that's it for me too. To tell the truth, I'd only have said I've gotten 'good' in the past couple months when I started seriously putting effort into raiding. I was an average pvp-er, terrible in arenas, but focusing on knowing my role in a raid and learning to adapt to the needs of the group probably put me in a 'good' catagory.

We've probably all seen or (God help us) been in a group with someone who firmly believes that breaking CC < his personal dps, or the warlock with melee crit gems in his pants. No matter how many times you tell them it simply isn't right, they'll do it anyway. The unwillingness to play the game the way the numbers and dice roll is probably the only really 'bad' thing someone can do, not time put in.

That and freakin' moving on flame wreaths. GOD it's just not that hard to stand still for 15 or so seconds.

I would go with this definition. Being unskilled is one thing; being unwilling to learn or, worse yet, unwilling to admit one is unskilled are worse still. But one can be a good player that simply doesn't know everything they need to know yet, especially if they go out of the way to work with people that shore up their weaknesses.

An example: my wife is a really good holy priest. However, she doesn't know much about certain mechanics of the game, things like spell hit and spell crit, etc. However, I love the number crunching aspect of the game, so that's fine. And she's willing to learn, sot hat's even better. I, on the other hand, am terrible at the social aspect of the game; I simply can't stand dealing with pickup groups and putting them together and trying to herd them. So she can shore up that weakness for me.

Hey, my shadow priest still has a +healing trinket too, its sad, but I've just not found anything yet to beat it plus when I raid it gets swapped out for a scryers bloodgem.

On a positive note when I drop out to heal .... :)