people who do literally nothing in BGs are the vast minority.

IMO PvP is infinitely more dynamic and challenging than PvE.
And if a paladin can get purples by standing in the back of a raid and casting 2 spells for a couple hours, I should be able to get a purple by playing BGs for hours and hours and hours and hours.

I agree.

Season 1 Honor Gear:

Season 1 Arena Armor is item level 123. To get this, you need to win 0 games. You need to kill 0 people. You need to have 0 friends, can be any spec, and can do it naked. You will always get the item that will give you the biggest boost next.

Even if you are skilled, your estimated contribution to winning (and, therefore, getting the gear faster) ranges between 10% (in the worst possible battleground for honor: WSG) to 0.25% (in the best battleground for honor: AV).

Let's take this into consideration, and look at average faction wins from Warcraftrealms. In my bracket: being categorically better than every person in the game is worth less in terms of speeding up the aquisition of PvP gear than simply being horde. You can grind honor faster by being an average player and being an orc than you can by being exceptional and being a human.

Kara:

Karazhan loot ranges from level 115-125. For the worst possible player, you have a 10% chance of being the weak link in your group, and in some encounters, such as Shade of Aran, your lack of competence can actually hurt the raid (i.e. Flame Wreath). Failing continuously will earn you no loot.

Kara is only quick when out-geared it and everyone knows the fights. You need a balanced group of people to cooperate and work together. People need to have a 'minimum' level of gear, skill and spec requirement. You cannot guarantee what drops. To earn an entire set of gear through Kara, you would likely have to run it many times. (Decreasing the likelihood that people would let you piggy back as a complete failure).

The time it takes to get PvP gear is linear. The time it takes to get Kara gear could range from infinite (highly unlikely) to one run (highly unlikely).

Let's assume that both sets of gear are equivalent in value to a player. Given the random nature of Karazhan loot, it would take longer to get any given piece of loot or an entire set on average. It also requires more skill to get Karazhan loot (by default, since PvP *requires* no skill).

I will not make an argument for or against allowing PvP gear to be obtained the way it is. I won’t call them “welfare epics.” But calling PvP gear harder to get is wrong. It might be more tedious to get, but then that beckons the question of why you would want to do it in the first place.

@3

totally agree, pvp takes no skill, no friends and really doesn't require attention (go watch tv while you soak up honor)

pve takes friends, skill, coordination and you cannot go afk as you must actually kill something to get the epic.

"The time it takes to get PvP gear is linear. The time it takes to get Kara gear could range from infinite (highly unlikely) to one run (highly unlikely)."

Exactly. And this is the the fundamental issue. Even in lackluster performances in pvp you can net yourself the epic of your choice in less than a month's time. Because of the random loot tables in pve the same can't really be said.

The other issue is progression. PVE your rate of progression is based solely on success. In PVP the rate of progression is based solely on the length of the arena season.

@3 & 4

while i agree with both of you, the season 1 gear if your looking to raid is complete crap for even raiding kara...so while it may give you a boost its not helping you much more than some of the blue dungeon set pieces...LoL

then again i had some guy tell me i had welfare epics cause i had kara gear on with my frozen shadoweave set... (cause it took no effort to get the 36 primal waters, or get to 375 tailoring right?) then again he/she was mad because i wouldnt duel him after i beat him/her the first time so there ya go...put yourself in an elitist guild that is what you become...a jackass

I have both a rogue and a Spriest that i've geared up via the BG's as I don't really have the time or inclination to jump into the time sink that is raiding.
Buttom line for me is, i worked my ass of for all that gear. I invensted the time (a chunk here, a chunk there) played my best, NEVER afk'd. I know i earned that gear. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Sure, people can queue up, check out and eventually get their epics. But, that doesn't mean everyone with those epics did that.

At least learn to spell before you post your idiotic comments...

I agree. and now especially with report AFK you cant just do nothing. you have to be a part in the team and you have to keep winning. PVE may take a lot of knowledge but they take nowhere near as long as PvPing all damn weekend just for a few pieces.

Exactly.

The only people who call them "welfare" epics are people who are unhappy that it's not just the no-lifers that have epics anymore.

For someone who has nothing to do but play WoW, having BT on farm status is barely an effort. For people who can only play maybe a few hours a day, or a few good sessions a week, saving up honor an tokens from battlegrounds, especially if they only play for fun and don't "grind" them, is an epic undertaking worthy of being rewarded with epic gear.

It's perspective.

It takes five minutes to go AFK. If you are not an honor grinder when was the last time you were in a BG and didn't do anything for FIVE MINUTES? If you go AFK in a BG you should get kicked out.; no more BGs for 24 hours. End of honor grinding, end of problem with welfare epics. If you are casual and actually put in the time PLAYING BGs to get s1/s2 gear via honor it is not welfare, it is a means of gear progression that can accomidate your schedule.

Except Attumen's purps < S1.

Have to disagree with you there Bob. There are plenty of times I've had to /afk out to do something really quick for my room mates or to get in some arena games before someone has to log. I think what you're confusing is the term afk. People really aren't using it to mean that AV AFKers are actually in game, but rather that they don't participate in fighting or have bots that keep them in combat or casting spells.

Bob, I think you misunderstand what it means to go AFK in a battleground. If you are actually flagged afk, you WILL get kicked out and given the deserter debuff that lasts like 10 or 15 mins. However, what people mean is that there are those people who are actually sitting at their computer (or botting) and making a conscious effort to not help. Those are the people that are referred to as being "AFK" in a battleground. They will not get the /afk flag because they are moving around (or standing and jumping every so often), but they are not helping the group, and are, for all intents and purposes, AFK.

Well buddy..
You can fail in battlegrounds and still get your purples... but if you fail in a raid you just get repair bills.

Did I mention I died in that Attunemen fight? Should my loot be ignored as a result? (Hey, don't blame me, it was my first time, I rarely raided before and didn't know the fight. I've never died on him since.)

And as for AFKing, sure you could do that. Of course, you could get 9 well geared friends to run you through Kara too for loot. And I don't know if you notice, but AFKing in BGs is a very, very slow way to grind honor. because your lazy arse isnt' helping, a loss is only 150 to 200 honor. Even a good win, with no other help, is 500. It takes 12000 honor for the least expensive piece of armor.