The gear > skill argument isn't new whatsoever... the resilience thing is slightly newer but still over a year old now, so grats for that. On topic, though, gear only gets you a certain distance. Granted, that's usually far enough to get a S3 weapon but past there the key turners hit the skill wall and just go round 2-shotting the just-dinged clothies instead. It sucks for those people on the receiving end but once they gear up they'lll eat the other guy for breakfast.

In summary then, Gear > skill up to a point.

Reply

Skill of the player, until the skill levels get close. If you are a complete nub then you will get owned by people with terrible gear. But once you have the basics down then gear starts to over take player skill. Skill doesn't help much when you get crit for OMGALLMYHEALTH and your hits bounce of the other guy. And this has nothing to do with resilience. Tier 2/3 players used to own it up in the BG's, and the great twink debate has been going since forever.

WoW has never really had skill based PVP. The amount of times their is a large gear differential, or numbers differential out weighs the times you are dueling outside Orgrimmar with a guy who has the same gear as you.

Reply

If resillience decreased all damage taken instead of critical/DoT/mana drain damage, PvP would be far more enjoyable (who likes a healer that outheals you? if you said the healer, you just won a cookie!) and wouldn't be a 2-shot fest like pre-TBC. At least crit-based speccs would be viable again... and somebody could have some fun ^^

Reply

Skill...
Incredible Shaman Tricks 3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1256690185330102136

The people he fights clearly don't do what they should be doing, thus his skill(and his small bits of gear/eng) trumps their lack of skill.

Really though, some of the people he faces... /facepalm

Reply

Gear > Skill. No doubt.

I see it every day. In midlevel PvP I'm always one of the top players, in endgame PvP I suck. Even clothies don't want to die, oh wait, they are stacked in purple and have tons of resi, HP and mana. Arenas are fine. You meet players that you actually are able to beat. But there is no arena rating in world PvP or BG PvP - arena gear has spoiled those completely. In AB and WSG usually that group wins, which has 1) more ppl in S2/S3 and 2) less leechers. In this order.

This isn't much different than how it was when ppl in T2/AQ ruled Alterac Valley, but it still sucks. But back then, ppl just had more AP, Sta etc. Today they nullify your best skills by just pushing one stat. Arena gear, esp S3 is so overpowered that players become twice as powerful as others in PvP, just through gear. Before you can beat them, you have to compensate this first - through skill.

I don't want to QQ - gear is what the game is all about and those ppl stacked in S3 purple have invested much more time and effort in PvP than I did. But I _really_ hope there won't be a S4 set. AV, AB and WSG will become a slaughterhouse for everyone not equipped in at least S1. Hopefully Blizz will think about arena gear in Wrath and change the way you achieve it or how it works outside arenas.

Reply

As stated before, I echo the sentiments that gear is much more of a factor than "skill" in PvP. E.g. in arenas, I have about 7000hp. My partner has about 6000hp. Starting at the 1500 rating, we went against another team, they were wearing S2/S3 (I armoried them afterwards). They weren't particularly good, but just outlasted us. Why? They each had upwards of 12500 life.

The only way to truly equalize PvP would be to borrow some ideas from other pvp oriented online games and make it so that all players started with equal gear. But that's not going to happen, oh well.
I had such great ideas for a "rent-a-gladiator" program...

Reply

"And this has nothing to do with resilience"

Possibly the dumbest comment ever. Before BC it was about gear because of the offensive stats and Naxx players destroyed MC'ers in 2 hits. Nowadays that's much less likely to happen and it's about out-lasting rather than out-damaging.

Reply

The answer to this question was just answered by Blizzard themselves in their plans for the new worldwide arena tournament. Players will compete on a team, each one choosing the class they want to play. All players are given equal gear for their class. The games will be completely about skill, not about gear at all.

This proves the point that gear > skill because of the amount of difference it makes. A player in good gear will be almost like a higher level player because the gear gives so many bonuses.

I've fought others on my warrior that weren't very skillful but had better gear. I could get them down to 25%-50% hitpoints before I died. With equal skill, I would have one but skill doesn't increase your damage that much.

Reply

A large gap in either will result in a victory.

If we are equally skilled, but I have much better gear than you, its likely I'll come out on top.

If we're equally geared, but I am more skilled, I'll still come out on top.

In general I feel that skill > gear, but that only goes so far...no amount of skill will overcome a 300+ gap in resilience.

Reply

In 1v1 combat class match up has a lot to do with things as well. It is few and far between when my warrior can beat a paladin or shadow priest, but I just utterly destroy some classes. In Arenas and BGs gear is extremely important. Once you have the gear though then skill can take you from good to amazing.

Reply

>> Bribarian of Spirestone believes that resilience has changed the focus of interpersonal combat from player skill to gear.

This is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while. If everyone has comparable gear, then skill is the difference maker. This nub just doesn't want to admit he can't play anymore or he can't adjust to new strategies.

Sure, gear can be the difference maker, however everyone is basically wearing equal gear, in arena anyway. Everyone who does even 1500 rated arena has gear with 350-400 resilience, a mix of 2-4 pieces of S3 gear and remaining S2. The differences between S2 and S3 gear are minimal and when you win/lose, tactics are the difference, not a few points in stamina.

Gear only matters until you get 350 resilience, after that skill matters much more. It's very easy to see mistakes people make in arena in combat logs, but people don't like to admit they lack skill. It's much easier to blame a loss on gear.

Reply

if you waste our life away in this game you'll ofcourse acquire the needed skill to at a same gear level win against a casual player.

Reply

I think the reason groups look for a minimum resilience is not because gear is always superior to skill. The reason why they do this is there is no way to quantify skill. Asking for a minimum resilience simply increases the chances that everyone participating takes pvp at least semi seriously and helps establish a baseline gear level for the group.

Reply

Honestly, gear only affects the stats you have...
Skill affects everything from how you play your class, the way you specced, everything.
Skill is a major necessity.
Earlier, I was playing my 42 enhance shaman (for leveling mind you), with mainly greens. Well I see a 39 warrior marked for pvp, wearing Herods shoulder and helm, along with glowing weapons, so i decide why not.
About 10 seconds later he has to stun me to get away and heal, which i soon follow after him and take him down. No totems, just my two weapons a swinging.

Reply

Skill doesnt matter, its all about how much CC you have, gear to survive the other teams hits, and enough CC to nullify their damage.

This is a basic arena strategy, and skill plays a small part in basically knowing how to react to certain spells, but otherwise its all about gear.

A highly skilled player will always lose against a more geared one, unless they have more CC abilities (ala rogue stunlocks or warlock deathcoil), but even those only compensate so much, and dont require much in the way of skill to use.

Reply

Personally I believe PvP the way blizzard has it set right now is really the problem. The PvP grind has always been a time invested = more returns mainly because there is no other way to reward "skill" in a very much luck/roll calculated game. Yes I believe resilience has destroyed PvP for me. But in doing so it opened me up to the one thing that does take skill in WoW and that is raiding. With the invention of 10/25 person raids there is no more room in such for a lootsoak/fluff character. Every person has to do there job. So sadly PvP has to suffer, or pick up the pieces and allow people who can't hack it in a raid to give them a means of getting epics. Since the invention of resilience PvP is as was said before an "outlasting" event and sadly if you've invested the time to get the gear to last, whether you have skill or not PvP rewards time invested.

Reply