A good point considering what we saw in the BC change over, but maybe we shouldn't be too quick to expect the same. Naxx is getting retooled for the Wrath expansion, we've been told the old 40 man content could turn into new instances, so who's to say for sure and so soon that BC 25 man content will go the way of the dodo.

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I don't think of ZA as gearing up for 25 man stuff. I see it as just the latest 10 man. Believe it or not there are players who have no intention of doing 25 man content, but they still want to do 10 man stuff. The only problem I have with ZA is that its quite hard to start in there. My current Kara team is very capable of clearing Kara but we keep getting pwned by the bear boss.

I think the key with the 10 man stuff is to continue with what you can comfortably do until every one is geared up well then move on.

Regarding the lore Zul 'Jin is a bigger deal for me then Illidan so it would be just as cool for me to face off against him. And while he isn't directly involved Karazan was Medivh's base for a long time. Loot comes and goes (and it's been confirmed that loot will be levelled out in Northrend), so most people raid for content. Also one of the big draws in ZA for me is the mount not being a random drop. It's down to the raid.

I fully expect to be coming back to ZA once WotLK hits just for that mount.

I see 10 man stuff as separate to the 25 man stuff. The big mistake with Kara for me was that the tier 4 gear was split between 10 and 25man raids. As far as guilds go it tends to be that if they can do 25 man stuff 10 man stuff gets ignored very quickly. While those that can scrape together 10 people for Kara can never finish their tier 4 gear. I'm glad we can fill spaces with PvP welfare epics but I'd prefer better planning of loot drops. Hopefully the Sunwell 5 man instance will fill in some of the Kara gaps and help those of us struggling with ZA.

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The best summary I've heard of the ZA experience as far as getting new gear is, "If you need it, you can't get it; and if you can get it, you don't need it."

After a couple of weeks of banging part of our head against the bear and eagle (rather than raid Gruul 3 nights a week, we've given a Kara/ZA split a go), I'm personally looking forward to going back into Kara to beat the last bits of loot (T4 helm, off-spec itemization) out of it to help take down Gruul and make progress in that regard.

I wish there was something at a challenge level between Kara and ZA, to be honest.

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Another good thing about ZA is that players who are currently in 10 man guilds, but would like to progress into a 25 man guild, can gear up via ZA and thus hopefully get into a guild that is further ahead - thus increasing their chances of seeing at least early T6 content.

For example, my guild has just started T6, and we could do with a few healers. Would much rather an applicant in mostly ZA and badge gear than in Kara gear, or no application at all as they feel they're undergeared (we have Vashj vial as a minimum requirement, but that's beside the point).

In any case, gearing up is always a good thing, and having a 10 man option to do it in is great. If people choose to do it instead of, as opposed to alongside, 25 mans, that's their perogative.

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I think ZA was Blizz testing the waters to see how they would do with a 10 man progression. My guild had Kara on farm for about 6 months when ZA was released. We had tried to scrape up the people to do Gruul by borrowing from other guilds and it sucked. Waiting for who knows how long to try and fill out a raid that had been on the calendar for a couple of weeks sucked.

Now, at least, if we don't have enough for Gruul we can split up and hit ZA since it's on such a short timer. We can get the first two to three bosses and one to two of the timers in a mix of Kara, badge, ZA, and PvP gear. Yeah it's tough but we would rather beat it now before it gets nerfed than after :)

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WTB 15- and 20- man raids, at the right difficulty & gear level, to ease guild growth & progression.

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Heh, funny this should be posted today. I only do 10-man raids with a group of friends anymore, due to family and other time constraints. We've had the first half of Kara (Attumen to Curator) on farm for months, and for the last few weeks have been clearing through the back half with remarkable ease. Last night we decided to try ZA for the first time. Some of us are in all-purples, but most are in a mix of blues and purples from Kara and PVP. We had no problem on the trash to the bear boss, and got the bear boss down after two wipes (a bad pull, and a bad taunt). It took us awhile to figure out how best to do the gauntlet leading up to the eagle, but we got it done. Got the eagle boss to 45% before we wiped and had to call it a night.

Still, we had a ton of fun. I think we need a few more weeks in Kara to get a few more purples on some of the undergeared people, but otherwise, I really like where ZA is positioned. As another poster said, I can also see coming back when I'm level 80 and doing the timed run for a Bear mount.

I hope Blizzard has a clear path of 10-man progression in Lich King, I really enjoy the small group dynamic.

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The thing about ZA is that it isn't a bridge between Karazhan and 25-mans like its supposed to be. They tried to please everyone I think, because only those nearer to the end-game are able to get down all 6 bosses. Sure the bear boss is a joke, but thats it. The Eagle can be hell incarnate if your not prepared and don't have heavy heavy healing, the lynx isn't super hard but he can really push you to perform at your best, its easy to slip up on him. The Dragonhawk is just plain hard, and Malacrass is worse, and I can only imagine so is Zul'jin.

Personally, my guild clears Gruul regularly, and with ease (ie. no wipes, 1/2 hour clears) and while we aren't in ZA regularly, we have had trouble with the dragonhawk and have yet to actually down Malacrass (3%).

As for the gear, I think that ZA does a pretty good job filling in some gear gaps, and gaping ones at that. However the itemization on a lot of the gear there is really weird, and while thats cool, a lot of the gear feels like it could be so much better if it's item budget wasn't wasted on gimmick stats. Not to mention that a lot of it is sooooo ugly.

Long story short, I think ZA is worth doing for anyone progressing through late T4 (ie. Gruul/Mag) or progressing into T5. Thats what it seems to be tuned to in my eyes. I don't really see it as a road bump, it's designed to be short and simple, wether its simple or not depends on your group

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From this post:

"Of course some of them are dabbling in Gruul's Lair but I dare say Lady Vashj isn't getting as much company as she used to."

From the Guildwatch post right before this one:

"I don't know what Vashj did to you guys, but there must have been something, because she is getting dropped more and more often lately."

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