I think that if any subtlety rogue is in a fight and he actually NEEDS cheat death (read: is near a death blow), it's too late at that point. Mainly because subtlety rogues are about a decent opener and then they peter out and can't do jack for damage in a fight.

It would be one thing if players still averaged around 4-5000hp, but since they typically double that the rogue (especially a sub rogue) is relegated to picking off people that are already at 1/3 health...

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I'd wait and see first. But at the very least, it shouldn't be *as* infuriating for attackers as it has the possibility to be right now, when a rogue can get lucky and have it save them three times in a row, in which time they will have a pretty reasonable chance of killing their aggressor.

Less random, really. I'm massively unsure about three seconds of invincibility though. Maybe 2 seconds, but 3 seconds of total invuln? A bit scary.

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Since when were rogues nerfed ? Sure they have thewarrior/hunter problem, but considering most rogues can do that to caster classes with cloak of shadows i think its balanced :P

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I don't give a s--t, I don't even PVP...

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Doesn't this just give a few more seconds to kill your opponent before you die?

It's basically just a bubble right before the end.

It's just automated.

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yeah, i honestly don't think it's that overpowered. rogues need more survivability in both pvp and pve. and it's only a 2 or 3 second immunity, that's not really that long.

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wait, nm, it's not even an immunity, just 90 percent less dmg, so you can still be killed. i think the changes are fair

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not sure if my last comment made it...but im quite dissapointed at how this post so poorly quotes my own.

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I can see buffing it as a response to them being vulnerable in boss fights where cleaves and whirlwinds instakill them.

I would rather see it proc a 'last stand' for the amount of damage avoided. You didnt avoid the damage you just delayed it.

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Uhh... why are people complaining about this being OP? It's still much weaker than a Priest's Power Word Shield, Mage's Ice Block, or Pally's bubble. Just leave it alone and let them un-nerf the Rogues. Sheesh.

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The guy whose blog you linked to even admitted "I don't know much about arenas". That's like someone saying "I've never raided before, but I know when a talent is overpowered against Illidan". In actually, no, you don't. While there might be some cases where it'll be different, in most situations, 1.5 energy ticks probably won't make a big difference, or maybe your healer gets a heal off a second later, but the same can almost be said if you get a lucky RNG dodge or parry or resist.

Plus, if you're speccing that deep, that means you're heavily invested in sub, and most sub rogues aren't going to have the huge burst of a combat or assassination rogue at the late point in a fight where cheat death comes into play.

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@11.
i said i dont know MUCH about arenas. i didnt say i know NOTHING about arenas.

your comparison is weak, at best.

besides, the whole POINT of my post was to ask anyone who reads my blog if it IS op for arenas. because i dont know, i posed my assumption and asked for comments.

thank you, WI, for stealing my discussion.

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#1 like many people have said, if someone specs this deeply into Sub this is going to be needed for them to live long enough to be worth a damn past the opener.

#2 its not 3 seconds of immunity, its 3 seconds of -90% damage. now if cheat death procs with the rogue at 1000 HPs there isnt going to be much difference. but if it procs at 200? that execute is still gonna kill him, friend.


I find it shocking that with all the changes coming in 2.3, people choose to pick on rogues and yell "OP!!". Its a case of the grass is always greener. Everyone thinks their class is gimp and everyone they cant beat is OP.

In the end, as everthing stands now, you should pray that every rogue you run into is heavy sub with cheat death exactly as it is on the PTR as opposed to 5/32/24 combat/hemo

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You didn't sound like you were really hesitant at all. The very next sentence after the one I quoted said you knew when a talent was overpowered, and that the new talent was overpowered.

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tried it, it sucks not op, cause the rest of the tree sucks.

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Sometimes I really fear that WOW devs are reading these posts, and possibly taking these opinions as a lever to evaluate my spec.

" I was personally so sickened by the Subtlety talent tree (that served me well from levels one to seventy) that I recently respec'ed to a common Assassination/Combat blend. " ...in something that I have prevailed in, in something that I have used to shame others and defeat so many opponents, you are sickened by it. You used it from 1 to 70? are you a new rogue? is this your alt? This quote reveals that you never really attained the potential of this spec, and it defeated you. I'm sorry but... It just sounds to me like you haven't the experience to write this post.

People who dont even use the spec, in fact, only insult the spec, somehow think that they are the most experienced person to share their opinion about it. I only hope Blizz is able toidentify these people and ignore their say in the matter.

I see more and more of these posts about the sub-spec tree and so often they appear to be biassed to the negative. I grow tired of reading this bile, but it directly effects me, so I am forced to read on.

I am a deep specced sub rogue, and I honestly say I have the spec mastered for PvP and PvE. Maybe I am a rare person for this tree, and often times people in PUG groups think I am combat daggers or mutilate spec. I only smile and nod. My DPS is up there with the big dogs and cats in the rogue world. It's not the best, but I top the meters consistantly, and I have been raiding for a pretty succesful guild. I am one of 6 raiding rogues in my guild, they are all combat or mutilate (and one is a combat/assassin hybrid), they have all tried sub, and most of them, hated it. My damage is usually right there with them. Some people think I am hacking, or atleast they joke.

If I am in a PUG, I dont need to tell them I'm shadow-step. I dont need or want to be insulted, who does. But the ignorant and arrogant will continue to spawn and reproduce and we are forced eventually to put up with their lack of intelligence and experience in matters that they often times, only ever speculated about.

Respectfully I say; You dont know what your writing about. As it stands now, 3/3 Cheat Death offers a 30% chance to avoid all damage from a blow that would have otherwise killed you.

I have had this save me several times, up to atleast 5 times in a row. I have had DoTs on me that should have killed me as they ticked for the next 6 seconds while I waited to drop out of combat... so I may eat. Usually after I kill a Warlock or a Warrior and they have dotted me, they wait before realesing, to watch me die from the DoTs, only to be dissapointed by my Cheat Death talent.

Early on in Karazhan, towards the end of our boss fight with the Prince, our young tank died. I was next in line for aggro. I tanked Prince for the last 25 seconds of his life because evasion coupled with cheat death being cast 3 times. Any other rogue spec would have perished. My comrades, of course, were very happy. Not only did I evasion tank him, but I 'cheat death' tanked him too. Evasion only adds dodge, it does not add shadow resist.

With the new Cheat Death that will not be possible. For 3 seconds after my cheat death activates, I will take 10% of the damage from a DoT or Bleed effect for only 3 seconds, and then the DoTs will tick at full damage and cheat death no longer work for another minute.

Doomilias writes something about how he's afraid 'roguetards' will come in and start abusing cheat death by stealing aggro (I guess on purpose) and hoping a healer will be able to heal that 'roguetard' in the 3 seconds of life the 'roguetard' has left. I think he is wrong, his logic is flawed. People like this are not allowed into end game raiding. His fears are irrational.

I read a comment that I may be misunderstanding: He thinks that if his Cheat Death goes off (because he was struck by a 4k mortal strike), he's basically 'invulnerable' for 3 seconds. He thinks somehow that if he is invulnerable for 3 seconds he has time to kill a healer. A good arena healer probably has about 11k health. so, this guy thinks he can land 3666pts damage a second on a healer, land every blow, and somehow convince the healer to stand there letting him do this.

In this case the Cheat Death would not be OP, the fact you do 3.7k a second is OP.

This is not a nerf or a buff, it is simply a new take on a pretty nice talent for a very unpopular, under-rated and notorius spec.

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Eric,

You may want to actually read a blogger's post prior to quoting that blogger. Re-read Doomilias' article.... he's played with hemo builds on the PTR, not cheat death. His cheat death material was complete speculation.

Cheat Death, as currently laid out on the PTR, does not seem overly OP. Only real experience and experimentation can bear that opinion out, mind you.

Try to lay off the blatant class-based whining - it doesn't help anyone, and hurts the WoW community.

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If Cheat Death makes it to the live version with 33/66/100 intact, I'm gonna dust off my 60 rogue and begin leveling her as my new PVP toon. My 70 lock will get put away and begin collecting dust.

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I'm with Karthis. I've noticed a whole lot of garbage coming from this site lately. Why do you all continually try to get the WoW player community at each others throats? I just don't understand it. Everyday, you post articles about some class being OP or some mob being too easy and you imply that you are speaking for the larger community as a whole, when in fact, you are just putting forth your own opinion in order to create controversy, posts, and activity on your site. Sure, you can always find a couple of knuckleheads who will support almost any argument you have to make, but I believe that most of us get along rather well. I have no problem with Rogues/Cheat Death or Warlocks being OP. While most of us have just had fun battling the Headless Horseman and making keg runs on our Brewfest Rams, you are out here creating a poison pill (Is the Horseman too easy? or Is the keg run easier for alliance?). I enjoy the informative articles, but I've just about had it with divisive tactics used to gain page hits. A little more community wouldn't hurt.

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as a caster , rogues resist about 60 percent or more to my spells, dont see why they need any more invulnerability, maybe against physical attacks yes

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