Mirshalak doesn't like rogues. He makes a long post telling us why, and then Karthis from Of Teeth and Claws posts this rebuttal. Then in an utterly shameful display, Mirshalak... concedes that Karthis has a point.Oh dear. Well, there goes any hope of name calling, hair pulling or other ungentlemanly behavior. (Or unladylike, I don't know the actual gender of the folks involved.) So, then, what can we actually take from all of this? Well, here are my own incredibly long winded 'point/counterpoint' thoughts.
Well, to be completely fair and honest, I have had a lot of the same problems with rogues Mirshalak mentions. While I don't believe that the entire class is sociopathic or full of people who can't work with a group, I have several stories stored up from my time playing WoW of rogues who decided to wipe the group and vanish because they didn't get a drop they wanted (not that someone else did get it, just because the boss did not drop the item, mind you) or rogues deciding to try and train bosses over the hunter who has feigned death to hopefully use his jumper cables to res a few healers in order to help prevent a reset wipe.
While I've met people of every class who have annoyed me, from warriors to shamans to mages to hunters to paladins, of the stories I have to tell about absolute jerkwads, it's usually a rogue. It was one of my guild's leading rogues who liked to tell racist and sexist jokes to my wife, and another of my guild's rogues who managed to offend the entire priest core of our guild to the point where they wouldn't heal him at all. So I can empathize with Mirshalak's position here, and even speculate that there is something inherent in the mechanics of the rogue class which set up and reward lone wolf playstyle in some fashion.
But clearly Karthis is right. You can't judge a whole class by the few jackasses you meet, and everyone has a different personality and is irritated by different things. While aspects of rogue gameplay (their stealth and ability to vanish, their stunlocks) might contribute to your irritation when you're PvPing against them and might leave you cold while dealing with them, these are not aspects that will irritate everyone, merely personal biases.
Rogues absolutely do deliver mana-free, easily regenerated, self-sustaining high DPS that no other class can deliver in the same fashion... no waiting for rage, no watching one's mana... and they also bring the versatility of their particular form of CC, which while requiring some care is hardly shabby. Heck, in my own experience in my horde guild, rogues have saved the day on more than one occasion, and not purely through their DPS either. If you've never seen a rogue totally stun-tank a mob that's gotten loose, it's worth seeing. Rogues offer more than generic DPS, and a good rogue will change how you view the class just like magic.
Mirshalak is entirely reasonable in his follow up post where he admits Karthis has a point and that players of other classes can also be gigantic tools. So we'll just have to agree to... agree, I guess. Rogues are not to be held responsible as a class for the behavior of the jerks among them any more than I am to be held responsible for what that really bigoted white power moron of a warrior said in my Steamvaults run last night. Seriously, that guy? Made me sick to be in the same game with him, much less to have a character of the same class. I could not drop that group fast enough.
Subscribe
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
10-25-2007 @ 8:47PM
aesopsowner said...
Absolute same could be said about ret pallies, except near 90% of them make the rest look bad. I think hunters also have this general problem.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 8:51PM
jimos said...
rogues tend to be a class of 2 extremes. i play one so i know :)
there are alot of idiot who play them or rather dont know how to play them but there are also alot of good players.
it comes down to if you chose rogue and are a bad player, it will show more than alot (not all) of other classes, probly due to being in the front line during a fight, easyly killable and high threat gain.
however, if your good, none of those are a problem, it will also show greatly and yourl be invited back to a group.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 9:00PM
Shlayer said...
I dont play a rogue, but let me just say I think its one of the coolest classes in the game.
The talents that rogues have ENCOURAGE poor behavior, and i think it should be that way...blizz did an awesome job in creating the feeling of being a dirty cheating jerk, and if that were to change i would be sad, even though I hate it when they fool around and do stupid stuff.
They are the class you love to hate. Get over it!
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 9:22PM
jlpknights82 said...
It's true that rogue do have the most abilities that allow them to be annoying, taunting, sneaky little jerkwads. I've had terrible experiences with rogues basically just playing with me, sapping me over and over without being able to find them. It sucks, but that's the class I guess.
I really do think that some people are drawn to the class because of some deep, nasty desire to be jerks. But you can't judge and entire class on a few bad experiences. I'm leveling a rogue right now, and I don't ever plan to do any of those things. :P
But yeah, I do agree that the Rogue class attracts some true scum. I just wish Blizzard could find a decent, fair way to take care of griefing situations that go past fun and into real harassment situations.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 9:38PM
robotrock said...
I only chose Rogue because I played an Assassin in D2:LOD...
I still wish there was a shadow warrior in the assassin tree :D
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 9:50PM
Erika said...
My main is a rogue. I love playing and i do use its bad things against the dirty alliance scum. But i am one of the rogues that could learn alot more from watching others but i am to busy trying to keep the dps up on the boss that needs to die. I have never seen a rogue vanish to get back at people but its not like i haven't thought about it during a pug.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 9:56PM
Switch4475 said...
There was this one rogue in my guild, back when I was still on the US servers, that just irritated me. He would constantly vie for the top DPS spot despite the fact that not a single one of the rest of us gave a damn who got it, spew out advice and tips to us even though we knew what we were talking about far better than he did, and - this was quite unnerving, actually - he would track your IP and find out exactly where you were and what your name was. That was part of the reason I left the guild and rerolled on a new server.
Of course, the other members of the guild weren't any better. A priest with RL talent points in Martyrdom springs to mind.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 9:59PM
Thingy said...
Talk about co-inkidink. I just did a huge rant on my guild's forums about what I as a hunter try to do not only in raids, but grouping and out levelling/soloing. It was a response to a rant from one of the guilds priests about bad hunters. Think of the worst things hunters can do to people, throughout his levelling/farming life in WoW he has been a magnet to this behaviour.
His rant made me angry. Not at him, but at those who had sullied my classes reputation so I wanted to clear the water a little and hopefully give a better guide to those with hunter alts on how they too can become liked and regularly invited to groups as I am.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 10:18PM
Tartan said...
You are correct most rogues are scum, I can't speak for PvE rogues, but PvP ones 99% of them are cowards, take away their stun lock and they are useless. Just try asking a rogue to duel you without using any stuns and see their reaction....they can't and won't because they rely on cowardly tactics to win. Before i get flamed for this, yes I do have a twink rogue and i never stun lock, i prefer up front in your face fighting and i'm nearly always in the top 3 at the end of any BG. So for that 1% like me, I tip my hat to you. To the other 99% try PvP'ing like a man for a change....that goes for women too. *ahem* :D
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 10:36PM
Loubear said...
Erm..@9 that's like telling warriors not to taunt while tanking, or moonkin druids not to moonfire. It's part of the class, not "cowardly tactics". Get over it.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 10:44PM
Chris Laverdure said...
@10 No, no, let him continue. I'd love to fight a warlock that doesn't fear, a druid/shaman/paladin/priest that never heals... Oh, paladin, get rid of the bubble too. Uh, Hunter pets, CHEAP. Training me and shooting at me from where I can't hit back.
Or, we could accept that every class is given a really powerful set of abilities that, in order to be effectively countered, require clever usage of your really powerful set of abilities.
Although, I do enjoy his idea that this game should be turned into pacman to make it "fair".
( BTW, Kudos on the twink rogue, my friend. You don't stunlock, but you set it up so you have way better gear than almost everyone there.... certainly fair and honorable )
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 10:54PM
Solex said...
I'm a rogue and I'm the firs to admit not all of my rogue brethren are the sharpest knives in the armory. There are however some pretty damn good ones who can sap and dps with the best of them. I think there's generalizations about all classes. I think Mages are usaully divas the second something goes wrong they make quick use of their little portal because they have so much more to be doing and their cloth is so expensive to repair but I also take into account these are the mages I've been with and I've been having a lot more positive experiences with them as of late. Bottom line there's morons of every class the trick is to make sure everyone knows it and find someone better to play with.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 10:59PM
davidus said...
@9
"...take away their stun lock and they are useless."
"...yes I do have a twink rogue and i never stun lock..."
Did you just call yourself useless?
It's idiot rogues like you that ruin the class for others. Stuns are needed class abilities for rogues, not just some cheap way to fight.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 11:13PM
DeZo said...
I remember reading somewhere that the average age of the rogue players is the lowest.
I think it has a lot to do with rogues being jerks.
From my game experience, older rogues (25+) tends to be much cooler, relaxed and cooperative. But the same can be said about any other class. Gamestyle and behavior are functions of age mostly.
(not including the 30+ parent's basement virgins who release their aggressions on the peaceful azerothians)
and to No.9 -
Please ask a priest not to shield, pallies not to bubble, mages not to freeze, locks not to DOT and wars not to stuck so fraking much stamina while you're at it.
Rogues stunLock, thats the way the class is designed. It has nothing to do with cowerdness.
Gratz dude, you just wrote the biggest pile of self righteousness BS seen outside of FOX network.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 11:25PM
Alkahn said...
I usually found that while not everyone from a given class acts a certain way, the sociopaths in the game do tend to favor classes that let them "get away" with being, well, morons. The favored classes for such people, in my experience, are those with "get out of jail free" cards, such as feign death, vanish, and divine shield.
Which is not to say that rogues, hunters, and palis are all evil, but that those who are evil will *tend* towards those classes.
@9 http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 11:28PM
Warlock said...
The Rogue class draws a lot of assholes, simple as that. You've got a class that excels at ganking, griefing, and stunlocking. So of course every jerk and idiot is going to role a Rogue and find some way to piss you off.
But you can't judge the whole class based on a handful of idiots. There are a lot of great Rogues out there. And frankly, I sort of question that guy's actual experience with Rogues. Unless he is in a guild full of jackasses, I just don't see how he wouldn't encounter some decent Rogues. What I suspect is that most of his experience might be with PUGs or PvP, which is where most of the crap Rogues tend to reside. But I don't know.
In any case, it's a stupid arguement that I see over and over. Every class has their share of idiots.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 11:31PM
hpavc said...
Classes that thrive soloing tend to have people that are asshats at times. They often don't work among their own class more than among other classes. This is very typical of multiple hunters or multiple rogues in a group.
Some rogues are very lazy as well with the SS/evi spam and rarely care to bother doing much else. The example of a rogue evasion tanking or stun locking seems hard to believe, though I do, most of the time is "lol, vanish" in my experience.
How many times at rend or rattlegore did rogues "sorry gtg" back in the day. I think a lot of that comes from being solo-artists.
Reply
10-25-2007 @ 11:41PM
Jamesisgreat said...
I'm really not keen on rogues, but only because of the same reason I'm not keen on warlocks - I hate losing control of my character in PvP. If I'm getting shot at by a hunter or pounded on by a warrior at least I have options - when your stunlocked or feared and you just sit there and watch your health bar drop, it just isn't fun. I understand that stunning and fear are both major parts of those classes arsenals, but it still boils my piss and I think this is probably one of the reasons that they get the most grief.
Reply
10-26-2007 @ 1:28AM
Zinoron said...
@9 I find extreme irony in the fact that unable to use the skills available to the class one decides instead to stack the advantage by pure gear imbalance and this somehow makes one more manly to be a coward through uber weapons and armor as opposed to being clever with one's abilities.
Reply
10-26-2007 @ 1:46AM
epsilon343 said...
I think that, to a certain extent, every class at one point or another is guilty of what everyone hates about them. And every player is too. Honestly, I can't stand Hunters, either in PvP or in raids. In PvP I hate having to basically kill two people to win against them, and during raids, I've only found Huntards who blame the tank for the group's wipe when they couldn't control their pet. But in the end, this whole argument seems a little stupid as there will never be a consensus among WoW players and Blizzard is never going to be like "Oh, well, people hate Rogues so....let's just dump 'em."
Reply