I love these changes as a PvP paladin, but... Raiding pallies are still looking for threat reduction.

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/clap
Seriously
/clap!

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I was too slow but ...

"Well, Retnoobs (I kid), are you satisfied with these changes, or do you think you'll still be underpowered and unloved?"

Until threat is addressed (as per 1) it isn't underpowered or unloved, it is completely misunderstood for pve.

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I have learned, through years of forum watching, to be cautiously optimistic about pre announced changes to my class.

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It's clearly not a complete list. It is nice, but the biggest problem for ret wasn't damage output, it was damage output that wouldn't eclipse tank threat. If anything these abilities will add more threat, not less.

Adding more chance for criticals is even worse here; ret was already the burst damage tree(with those associated problems) and this makes that even worse.

Lowering the cost of exorcism/holy wrath/hammer of wrath does very little for tanking viability and addresses none of the primary issues prot has: lower HP than any other tank, worse itemization, fewer "Oh S***" buttons, inability to deal with fear and no ability to deal with spellcasters. The best benefit here is pursuit of Justice, but even that's mostly a pvp benefit, not a raid benefit.

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I wonder if changes to the low hanging fruit on the Retribution tree will cause changes to the standard tankadin build. Most tanks pick up Benediction and Deflection but with this new patch, they might want to try to go deeper.

...
Krick
http://www.tankadin.com

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These changes are fluff, they have not yet addressed the core issues. However, they do make you stop and consider some previous talents that were easy to over look before.

Additionally, I like the way some of these changes work for a non-Retribution build. Adding Judgement of Crusader for a paladin tank would be a nice way to change up the standard build and give tanking paladins some additional flexibility.

I expect more to come, Kalgan has suggested we will be hearing on the Paladin threat reduction soon. It is with the address of the core issues that we will have a true understanding of the impact this patch will have.

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No love for tankadins in 2.3 so far. I guess we have to wait until WotLK.

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2 words:
Threat Reduction.

Also, need stuff for paly tanks, of which, there is none.

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Yes great changes... except they have not done a shit about the top issue: threat.

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Sorry, but to a certain degree paladins don't deserve threat reduction. Tanks (especially warrior tanks) need threat increase - static tanking abilities need serious, serious love to match the DPS scaling you already HAVE, not to mention the scaling you're ABOUT to have.

Especially since Paladins are so quick to mock DPS shamans and tell them to STFU, why should you get it any better? More threat for all three tanks, especially warrior tanks, is the answer.

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Maaaybe the idea is to not have more damagedealers in PvE (there quite honestly are mor than enough classes filling that bracket) yet let Bubbleboys have some fun in PvP as well as do solo content more easily?

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Matthew;
Methinks you're reading too far into this. All the other classes have one form of passive or active threat reduction that affects them alone. Paladins do not. And no, Salv does not count because it's applicable to the whole raid.

If paladins want to DPS in raids, they need a method to either reduce or dump their threat because paladins are so crit heavy. And when you got a base 25% chance to crit, you find your threat going far faster than your damage, and you're still not doing more damage than the other DPS classes.

Furthermore, I do not recall seeing paladins mock DPS shamans in any way, shape, or form. If anything, it was the other way around, them telling us to stand back and heal.

However, I do agree that all three tanks need more threat, however, to let warriors have more threat than us would be counter productive since paladins have been known to be the best threat tanks in the game. Give that to warriors and you have less incentive to bring pally tanks. Which, ultimately, would lead to fewer tanks because a lot of warriors would rather not tank and just DPS.

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I read nothing on that list that justifies a ret pally in a raid. In PVE this is the exact same ret pally we have today, which means no raiding for us.

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@11, while I won't disagree that more threat on any tank is a great thing, I do disagree that Warriors need more threat building abilities, as compared to other tanks. For instance, Pally tanks are screwed over if the mob that they are tanking loses aggro to an over-zealous DPSer. If a paladin's "taunt" is resisted the pally is, unfortuantly, probably not going to get that mob back. The Paladin will go oom with his burst damage spells, trying to peel that mob back off the party member, and because he isn't getting heals because he isn't taking damage his little blue rage bar will remain empty. While a warrior can regenerate rage (albeit at a slower rate) by hitting the mob, so he can continue to taunt and throw in higher threat attacks. Since Druids use the same energy mechanic (rage) I would assume that they have similar abilities for regaining aggro on a wayward mob, but my experiences are limited so I will not swear by it.

Alas, the OP was about retribution. I think an elegant solution would be a spell that is effectively the opposite of righteous fury. Maybe "Righteous Subtlety" to reduce threat for retribution pallies. (Sorry for the Leength.)

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Answer is simple, spec Holy or Prot if you want to raid, then spec back to Ret for your PVPing and farming. Less Q_Q from Ret please.

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Wait a second...did Pursuit of Justice and Vindication just become useful?

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@16 Skrilla...Nice to see someone from the 8-yr old bracket chime in their response. Your support was needed.

@OP...I am actually going to say that these are some nice changes. I see the need for a threat reducing ability as many people have stated, but I would be very quick to remind people that Ret Paladins are also OTs in 5-man instances, and can often kill a mob while others are downing their targets, all while having that survival power...I don't want to see Ret lose that. An ability like a Rogues's feint or a Warlock's soulshatter would be nice though. Something that can be activated if desired.

I do not see raiding being addressed well in the updates mentioned, but am optomistic about future changes that may not have been talked about. I respecc'd my Pally to prot just recently, and really miss playing ret. If the changes turn out to be good, I will go back.

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@16 Skrilla...Nice to see someone from the 8-yr old bracket chime in their response. Your support was needed.

@OP...I am actually going to say that these are some nice changes. I see the need for a threat reducing ability as many people have stated, but I would be very quick to remind people that Ret Paladins are also OTs in 5-man instances, and can often kill a mob while others are downing their targets, all while having that survival power...I don't want to see Ret lose that. An ability like a Rogues's feint or a Warlock's soulshatter would be nice though. Something that can be activated if desired.

I do not see raiding being addressed well in the updates mentioned, but am optomistic about future changes that may not have been talked about. I respecc'd my Pally to prot just recently, and really miss playing ret. If the changes turn out to be good, I will go back.

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@17, my thoughts exactly. I was going to respec since I put 2 points on PoJ, but now I'm reconsidering. I wish they would buff PoJ to ward fear. Did I mention I hate locks?

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