Ah! Finally someone admits that arena can be tough! Now if we can just eradicate that "welfare epic" comment from the public record...

And also...thank you! Time = gold. Time = loot. Time = raiding. Time = everything"hard"aboutWowthatpeopleliketobragabout.

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Have you actually tried some of those 25 man raids in BC... Or even some of the Kara encounters?

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I think the point about Bioshock was they wanted everyone to actually finish the game and see the complete story. I do think that for the Hard difficulty level they should have implemented a more harsh penalty for dying.

About WoW being too easy, it is easy to level to max, but the "endgame" and PvP is where the people go looking for challenge. If the leveling part of WoW was more difficult it would turn into EQ or Vanguard and the masses would disperse. WoW is more a social experience than a gaming one, and the main thing that other MMOs just don't get.

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@3 I totally agree with you, I think some of the wow population that wants to use WOW as a means to boost their self esteem via in game accomplishments are better off doing something in real life instead.

I used to raid and the hardest thing is not the fight themselves but getting people to show up, stick around to learn the fights, and also getting people to all pay attention when the fight starts. I think many raiders stopped after the expansion when the old raids only required like 20 percent of the raid to really pay attention and now most of the raid has a role in your success.

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if you want hard, play pvp.

or make it hard on yourself. i'm intrigued by the question of how far it's possible to level without killing anything.

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Calling WoW easy baffles me. Yes anyone can level to 70 with enough time (and patience through the 50s), but that's the point, it's a game. Who in the right mind would play through Resident Evil if plant 42 took a month to beat? I mean really???

Personally I find that the endgame is a bit hard and over taxing. Trying to get X # of players geared, trained and making them available for encounter Y is HARD. Seriously, how many guilds have cleared Black Temple? TBC has been out for 7 months now? How many games you play that took 7 months to play, with the number of hours (and money) you invest into WoW. Frankly I wish they made Kara a bit easier because for many it's the first real experience players get at raiding...

As for arenas, I started arena about a month ago. I'm now working on getting my first piece of gear, a season 2 helm so I can progress through the raiding content better. It's true that it doesn't take too much time to invest in PvP but it is the more arcade friendly side of WoW, but don't ignore the shear ammount of time it takes to do. At 300-400 arena points on average a week, obtaining gear isn't nearly as quick as some would like. It's the investment that's not too heavy...

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Well some of the high end content is "hard". Only about 2% of raiding guilds are in Black Temple now. I think that figure will only be at 5% once WotLK hits.

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If you want challenge and involvement, reroll on a pvp realm. I did after learning the ropes on a pve realm, and it's a different world. You'll never see someone say in General or Trade "There's no difference between Horde and Alliance" on a pvp realm. Comraderie is tighter, questing and grinding is more difficult since it often sidetracks into little wars, etc. etc., and people actually care about their faction, and if Crossroads or Westfall is getting griefed.

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I've written at length about this recently: http://www.etherjammer.com/blog/?p=231

In short, I think WoW strikes just about the right balance in its difficulty level. It doesn't erect too many barriers to discourage people from playing, and the barriers that it does raise are high enough that it doesn't feel like there's no penalty for doing the wrong thing.

-Chris A.
http://www.etherjammer.com/blog/

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You'd be amazad at how many nabs with zero understanding of the game "skill" actually are in endgame guilds, though after TBC that number has been reduced greatly, Still...

Yes alot encounters is all about spending time learning the encounter but there's definitely encounters you can't do if every single person in the raid isn't "skilled": Archi/RoS/KT.

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Having played a healing priest (shadow now), healing definitely benefits from some twitch reflexes, especially as a lot of fights are dishing out damage away from the MT.

Maybe in 25-mans this mechanic is more rare, but in 10-mans it made healing incredibly stressful. Romulo and Julianne and Shade of Aran are also tricky. Admittedly, as you say, you can out-gear encounters and it allows you to be sloppy, but you're getting the gear to a large extent you're doing this content when it *is* challenging and your healers are sweating bullets.

My guild has me do the dispelling on Maiden and when she holy fires someone who has one tick of health left, saving them requires an instant response.

Maybe for DPSers (now that I am one, I can see this) the game is seldom difficult, but I have to say healers have all the "react or die" so common in other games.

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I very much agree with #4.
Boosting your self esteem in a video game can be a very good thing for the real world.
You better off playing WOW than being depressed, using drugs or starting drinking.
It's a good temporary bandage to real life if the real life is tough.
Also, you could really learn group management skills in WOW.
Raid leading is a fantastic school.


>4. @3 I totally agree with you, I think some of the wow population that wants to use WOW as a means
> to boost their self esteem via in game accomplishments are better off doing something in real life
> instead.

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Some people play games for the challenge. It is fun overcoming challenges and when people get good enough they seek better challenges. This is why people go into competitive gaming. This is why after playing a good single player game through the first time they up the difficulty mode the second time around. Who hasn't at some point played a game and eventually played it on Ultra Hard mode?

WoW's appeal has never been that it presented a good challenge. It's all about accessibility. MMOs in general are blasted for not requiring any "skill" and mostly time. In the end, the game is fun and you can even play with your grandma!

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@12.. I think you misread #4, and actually you don't "very much agree"...

As for difficulty, it's as difficult as you choose to make it at any given time. Grinding well above your level can be challenging and rewarding.

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Thats why WOW is winning 9million subscriptions.

Hardcore or casual players they paid the same amount of subscriptions. They should earn the same returns from the game.

If you are looking for challenges to raise your self-esteem, Go to your real life.

WOW is for entertainment.
Same subscriptions should have the same returns.

Hardcore coz you have no life. Don't disturb my gaming experiences.

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I wonder how a guild struggling in SSC/TK can go back to easier instances (kara, gruul, maggy?) and farm epics and then return and suddenly it's easy?

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Ahh, Babamucha - english much?

Games like World of Warcraft give you exactly as much as you put in. We have a RL couple in my guild how have three 70's each, with a fourth coming up for both of them - with (from a raiding point of view) poor gear, poor spec choices and a general lack of knowledge on how to play. Do you think this stops them from having fun?

However, do you also think that they deserve to get loot on a par with Black Temple? No. They haven't - in fact, won't - put in the time and effort it takes to get yourself there. That's entirely their choice. The fact that they pay the same as everyone who *is* in BT has nothing to do with it.

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The point about arena isn't whether it's too easy or not. The point is that you get your rewards anyway, whether you win or lose. Like Tobold said, if you login every day, do your dailies and play one arena game, you *will* become rich and well-geared, even if you're the worst player in the world. You don't even need a lot of time in your hands. You only need to show up.

So, the point isn't about things being too easy or hard, it's about skill not mattering at all. It's about Blizzard deciding to hand out epic gear and money to players who simply can't do anything more complicated than daily quests. And let's face it, those are *really* simple to do.

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@18 If skill doesn't matter at all, why isn't everyone running around in BT gear? Only a tiny fraction of the huge playerbase has even made it to SSC. Skill, obviously, DOES matter. It matters very much...just not everywhere all the time.

Cash and arena epics are not supposed to be about skill, they serve ingame purposes that are orthogonal to the risk/reward curve.

So dailies give you cash...cash is nothing, it's just repair bills, really. Repair bills and respec costs. It shouldn't take *skill* to repair your armor! There isn't much else you can DO with cash when it's so readily available - it loses value as an exchange medium.

Arena epics are a bit different - if you give the best teams the best gear, then you will rapidly get a system where there is nopoint in participation by the unskilled. While this might seem fun at first blush, imagine an Arena system with only 10-20% of the current participation.

Casual epics buy you short queues. Having played on the dominant side before Xserver BGs, I can tell you that 4 hour waits for a fight are NOT FUN.

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I personally don't care if people think WoW is an easy game. Has anyone else played another MMO before. I sure have and let me tell you, WoW is a breath of fresh air.

EverQuest (EQ) - My first real MMO addiction. Spent 2 1/2 years in that game only to have a level 65 Wizard that was constantly broke because trade skills were terrible and the hundreds new expansions kept players from getting some kind of progression down. I loved the game at first but soon realised how fighting over non-instance bosses for endgame progression was terrible.

Final Fantasy XI (FFXI) - My second MMO I played with close friends since it was multi-platform. My god, what a terrible idea this game is was. I played it for six months and six months of torture was far too long. Not being able to solo ANYTHING past level ten. Traveling from one major city to another by foot would take 30 mins to 1 hour. Missing a connecting airship from town to town would cost you 15-20 mins instead of a few mins like in WoW. FFXI is a terrible, TERRIBLE MMO. I don't know how much more I can stress this.

In my opinion, EQ was like your normal parent. They set many rules for you and if you followed them, you would be rewarded for your efforts. FFXI was like a strict parent that would beat you for talking out of turn and giving you a curfew of 6pm at night. WoW is like a really cool parent, lets you be your own person. Doesn't set to many rules for you. Will even help you with any problems you have along the way.

I love WoW regardless as to how easy it may be!

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