Wow, those changes are underwhelming to say the least when you compare them to the buffs being considered for the Shaman class.

Go Go Cleric.

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I'm with World of Raids. Initially I read the Tooltip for Sanctified Seals as a "wedge" that would allow ALL damage dealt to the afflicted target to increase its crit percentage by 3... Making hunters and rogues VERRRY excited to have a Ret pally next to me while I beartank.

3% still seems small though.

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its nowhere near enough!

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I am not amused

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Once again, I am not amused.

Im currently holy spec and really enjoy the idea of a retri paladin and Hell its about time

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"Wow, those changes are underwhelming to say the least when you compare them to the buffs being considered for the Shaman class."

Just in case you were wondering, THIS statement, and the sense of entitlement behind it, are why Paladins are so universally despised. (I refer you to the post on this very site that indicated that people revile you nearly as much as warlocks.)

Enhancement Shaman are BROKEN. They're not going on raids, they're not being taken to five mans, they're dying in PvP so fast it's ludicrous. The day ANY paladin of ANY spec can say they're incapable of raiding, five manning, AND PvPing is the day you need the kind of revamp shaman need.

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@6 A tip of the cap to you sir. Pallys heal in plate, tank, and complain about now having god mode. You dont need dps cause you have one of the greatest survivability in the game.

@1 what about the 10 min blessing buff that is on its way? Did you see any increase in totem time/health? No I didn't think so. This reminds me at one of the guys in Q&A at blizzcon complaining about mass dispell on paladin bubble...you guys want everything in the game in your favor.

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"Enhancement Shaman are BROKEN. They're not going on raids, they're not being taken to five mans, they're dying in PvP so fast it's ludicrous. The day ANY paladin of ANY spec can say they're incapable of raiding, five manning, AND PvPing is the day you need the kind of revamp shaman need."

You fail. Im raiding with my Enh Shaman but not with my retri pally, i can kill things in pvp SOLO with my enh shaman but have problems with my pala. Im sought after for 5mans but have problem getting into those 5mans with my retri pala.

I can provide damage nearly as good as a rogue on a single target. When i try to max with my paladin i take aggro and still is 25% lower dps than my shaman.

You are full of it!

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To fuel the shaman vs. paladin war happening here. Retribution Paladins have a harder time getting into raids then shaman of any spec. Our raid has a very awesome enhancement spec, and a superb Elemental coming soon, I also know many resto shaman who raid too. So... in short, maybe shaman don't go on min/max raids, but then, maybe you're raiding with the wrong people?

Anyhow, Auras = Totems. Our Auras didn't get changes, our Auras involve ranges and all the jazz like Totems, Blessings are a completely different entity and can't even be compared to totems. Do you hear Paladins complaining about how they can't put buffs on their weaponry, etc.? Don't compare apples and oranges.

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Wonder if there is a plan to beef up seal of the crusader then to what improved SoTC currently gives us. I mean it may not even be necessary (@ lvl 80, or even 40 for strictly ret pallys) due to the increased crit and duration of vegeance, but that will only favor those somewhat deep into retribution.

What about those soloing spell damage holy pallys who aren't exactly shockadins and aren't deep enough into retribution to grab vengeance?

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Really all this means so far is that Holy Shock paladins are getting Sanctified Crusader. I'll drink to that, but this isn't even a tip of the ice berg for Ret paladins.

If they're wanting more sustained, less burst DPS, maybe they'd focus less on those crit talents. Again, this'll be nice for the shockadins, but that obviously doesn't help the rets until we see what the new seal talent replacing SC really will be.

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Wulfhere;
I don't recall Shaman getting boo'ed and laughed at during the class panels. As for this sense of entitlement, it probably stems from all the broken promises made by the developers to actually make us more than just your heal bots. And cry me a fricken river for shaman, they had their time in the spotlight for being overpowered. paladins had no such thing.

@Drew;
You must be thinking of those mysterious 41/41/41 paladins that kick all kinds of hinder. Get real. Wearing plate doesn't mean a thing and you know it. In PvP, plate doesn't protect you against spells, which more than 50% of available classes use.

And believe it or not, there are many (stupid) priest rerolls that put paladins in mail, leather, and yes, cloth to heal and heal only!

Finally, believe it or not, 12 seconds of invulnerability, which can be dispelled by priests, does not make us the most survivable.

Get your facts straight.

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Either do something big for ret, or nothing at all no more gimicks please.

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Yeah, those are uhh... fairly shitty. The changes for Shaman would address a lot of issues with paladins, especially that whole SD & H based off your AP.

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WHAT? 6 sec cooldown on CS is a gimmick? WOOOOOOOW. I remember people whining for HUNDREDS OF PAGES on paladin forums after nerfing CS from 6s to 10s, because their dps is going to be lower, because they are not going to keep their judgements up when they miss and what now, it felt like they just killed your class by that, and now it's just a GIMMICK?

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@6 Enhancement Shaman are BROKEN. They're not going on raids, they're not being taken to five mans, they're dying in PvP so fast it's ludicrous. The day ANY paladin of ANY spec can say they're incapable of raiding, five manning, AND PvPing is the day you need the kind of revamp shaman need.

Huh? When did I say anything at the least offensive towards shaman in general? I was making a statement about the ideas thrown around to "buff" both classes. If you honestly believe that a raid would choose a ret pallie over an enhancement shaman for a raid, all I can say is you don't know how to raid. Keep your sense of entitlement to yourself.

@7 A tip of the cap to you sir. Pallys heal in plate, tank, and complain about now having god mode. You dont need dps cause you have one of the greatest survivability in the game.

Hmmm... so pallies, ret specifically, can do all those things yet aren't invited to raids.

This topic was made in reference to ret paladin buffs. No where did I say anything about Holy not being excellent at healing, or protection being middle of the line for tanking. This is about Ret.

Would you bring a holy paladin to tank? No. Would you bring a protection paladin to heal? No. Would you bring any of those to fulfill their specced roles? Of course, but when do you bring a ret pallie to a raid such as Karazhan and beyond?

To the two closed minded shaman posters, please get over yourselves. My statement was a comparison of how underwhelming the ret pallie changes side by side with the shaman changes.

Knee jerk immature reactions ftl.

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@15. WHAT? 6 sec cooldown on CS is a gimmick? WOOOOOOOW. I remember people whining for HUNDREDS OF PAGES on paladin forums after nerfing CS from 6s to 10s, because their dps is going to be lower, because they are not going to keep their judgements up when they miss and what now, it felt like they just killed your class by that, and now it's just a GIMMICK?

So you're saying that Blizzard giving Pallies a 6 second cooldown on CS, nerfing it to 10seconds, then giving "buffing" it to 6 seconds again is a buff? Consider what you just said and get back to me on that. That's not a buff, it's called a fix.

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Grreat stuff, that 6 second cooldown on CS is a very good buff. Especially for those who PvP with retribution spec and I suppose it even bumps up the DPS for PvE folks as well.

Stun, stun, damage fun!

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The changes may help, but the Paladin need the following and i expect blizzard has similar plans:

remove spelldmg from retri gear, so there is
a) Paladin Sets with melee only stats+ Intellect
b) Non Set Plate Items with melee stats and some of them may have Intellect but almost none (so there is not so much dissing from retgear (dont expect to have 3 retri pallies in raids)

Add Talent for AP>Spelldmg Conversion

Purpose: With just the right % Conversion there is no need to change any coefficients from the seals

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There are a few problems with these changes, however, I believe they have nothing to do with the changes themselves. You'll be hard pressed to find a long term Paladin who will believe anything Blizzard says to anyone face to face. It seems the things they say in public meetings so vastly differs from the things they deliver that, frankly, no one believes a word they say any more.

We saw 6 second Crusader Strike once, following a public demonstration, and then it was taken away when there was no public to face. Sanctified Seals replacing Sactified Crusader only makes this "Retribution" talent available to all other Paladin builds. Giving the 3% crit was considered the reason to bring a Retribution Paladin to a raid, and it was not enough a boost to be viable.

However, it might be considered a great Protection Paladin boost. If you're going to bring a Protection Paladin, they can afford the 3 points to get this talent. It gives them something to add to a raid while there is nothing to off tank, instead of being completely useless.

The increase to 30 second Vengence is likewise a meaningless change. A properly geared Retribution Paladin should have zero trouble keeping up a full Vengence stack in a PvE encounter. This change will likely impact PvP more than anything, allowing a Paladin to retain a Vengence stack after bein croud controlled.

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