Each week, Daniel Howell contributes BigRedKitty, a column with strategies, tips and tricks for and about the hunter class sprinkled with a healthy dose of completely improper, sometimes libelous, personal commentary.
So just what is the deal with Scorpids? You've run around the Internet and seen folks yammering and flapping their pie holes about them and don't understand the hoopla. They're small. They scuttle. They don't Dash or Dive. They have lower white damage per attack than almost all other pets, although they do have the best armor of them all.
But why all the commotion?
Because something cool is afoot and the Scorpid-Hunters out there are living in fear, just like the Windserpent-Hunters did.
You don't know what happened and how the Great Windserpent Smackdown is causing a mild panic among our class to this very day? Oh this is a great story. Grab a snack; this is the best.
In the early pre-dawn of the Burning Crusade-era the windserpent began a new life among our class. With its Lightning Breath attack it is one of the few pets that benefit from the +Spell Damage bonus a pet receives from his hunter's Ranged Attack Power. Lightning Breath's damage per hit is calculated thusly:
LB_Damage = LB_Base_Damage + Spell_Power_Damage
The highest rank of Lightning Breath will hit for an un-RAP-adjusted average of 106 damage. This is a result of the formula:
LB_Base_Damage = ( LB_Low + LB_High ) / 2
LB_Base_Damage = ( 99 + 113 ) / 2 = 106
Now a windserpent's Spell Power Damage was determined by a using a percentage of our own Ranged Attack Power in this formula:
Spell_Power_Damage = RAP * 0.125
Our Lightning Breath Damage formula could then be written:
LB_Damage = 106 + ( RAP * 0.125 )
Imagine you are a Marksman-spec hunter with a Ranged Attack Power in the 2300-range. What happened with your windserpent's Lightning Breath attack was this:
LB_Damage = 106 + ( 2300 * 0.125 ) = 394 damage per attack
Can't argue with that. Marksman hunters, with their penchant to focus heavily on boosting their Ranged Attack Power, naturally went bananas for windserpents and the massive Lightning Breath damage they inflicted.
But there was a problem; the pet-programmers had made a mistake.
Lightning Breath is an instant cast spell. As our squishy caster-friends know, instant casts do not get the full benefit of +Spell Damage bonuses, they are only supposed to get a percentage. Specifically they are supposed to get 42.86% of the bonus +Spell Damage provides, but our windserpents were getting a full 100% bonus. The Great Lightning Breath Nerf of 2007 arrived and the formula for calculating Lightning Breath damage was "corrected":
LB_Damage = LB_Base_Damage + ( Spell_Power_Damage * 42.86% )
LB_Damage = LB_Base_Damage + ( RAP * 0.125 * 42.86% )
LB_Damage = 106 + ( RAP * 0.125 * 0.4286 )
Simplifed, it looks like:
LB_Damage = 106 + ( RAP * 0.053575 )
And when our 2300-RAP marksmen brethren took their windserpents out to play after the Hunter Nerf Bat was swung, they saw these results:
LB_Damage = 106 + ( 2300 * 0.053575 ) = 229 damage
The blood-curdling cries were heard from Darnassus to Sporeggar. Many a drunken hunter slept fitfully in the corner, the floor damp from his tears, his voice lost due to wild rantings on the forums... and the windserpent population among us has never recovered.
But what does this have to do with scorpids?
Because there is a similar feeling among us that the Great Scorpid Nerf of 2007 is brewing in some programmer's mind and if we don't bribe him soon it'll be too late.
"Too late for what!" you cry. It'll be too late to save the Rogue-Scorpid Trick, that's what.
Scorpids have a neat attack called Scorpid Poison. There are five ranks of it and each does more damage over time than the next, typical spell advancement theory. But the application of the poison is different than anything else we have.
Let's pretend your scorpid hits its target with a Scorpid Poison which does 40 damage every 10 seconds. The spell's cooldown is four seconds, then it hits him again. Tada, your poison stacks. What was once doing 40 damage per 10 seconds is now doing 80. Now this can stack up to five times, which would be 200 damage per 10 seconds.
But Scorpid Poison, like Lightning Breath, is also affected by +Spell Damage which is in turn boosted by your hunter's Ranged Attack Power. If our hunter has a 2300 Ranged Attack Power, and remembering that Scorpid Poison is an instant cast and is also affected by the 42.86% reduction to +Spell Damage, our Scorpid Poison damage formula can be written:
SP_Damage = SP_Base + ( RAP * 0.125 * 0.4286 )
SP_Damage = 40 + ( 2300 * 0.053575 ) = 163 damage per 10 seconds
Since the poison stacks five times, one would assume that the total damage would be calculated like this:
SP_Stacking_Damage = First_Strike + Second_Strike + Third_Strike + Fourth_Strike + Fifth+Strike = 163 + 163 + 163 + 163 + 163 = 815 damage per 10 secondsBut that's not correct; the algorithm works in a different manner. The trick with this calculation is that the algorithm does not add the value of the poisons individually, it multiplies the value of the first hit by the number of poisons in the stack.
It is not calculating:
SP_Stacking_Damage = First_Strike + Second_Strike + Third_Strike + Fourth_Strike + Fifth+Strike = 163 + 163 + 163 + 163 + 163 = 815 damage per 10 seconds
Instead, it is doing:
SP_Stacking_Damage = First_Strike * Number_In_Stack = 163 * 5 = 815 damage per 10 seconds
"What difference does that make," you ponder, "It's the same number, right?" Hold on, here's the Big Deal:
The algorithm for calculating Scorpid Poison stacking damage will not recalculate the First_Strike damage as long as the stack remains unbroken.
Chew on that for a minute, then continue.
What if you popped every trinket you had, Bestial Wrath, chugged potions and elixirs, sacrificed a squishy on an alter to the Spell Damage gods, and did whatever you could to blast that initial hit of your pet's poison as high as possible by inflating your Ranged Attack Power as high as you could, and then let your pet attack with Scorpid Poison?
Let's get our hunter with his 2300 Ranged Attack Power and slap him in a raid, pump him with agility totems, attack power flasks, attack power food, and everything else we can think of. He pops two attack power trinkets and gets his first Scorpid Poison to hit for 300 damage per 10 seconds. Let's also assume that his massive Ranged Attack Power persists for ten seconds.
The way we originally assumed the stacking damage calculation would work would be for the first two high-RAP poison attacks to be added, then the next poison strikes would be degraded as our RAP fell.
SP_Stacking_Damage = 300 + 300 + 163 + 163 + 163 = 1089 damage per 10 seconds
And with the next application of poison, the stack would again be degraded, like this:
SP_Stacking_Damage = 300 + 163 + 163 + 163 + 163 = 952 damage per 10 seconds
But that's not how the algorithm works! Remember, your Scorpid Poison damage is not calculated like that, the formula looks like this:
SP_Stacking_Damage = First_Strike * Number_In_Stack
SP_Stacking_Damage = 300 * 5 = 1500 damage per 10 seconds
And the Big Deal comes into play now: As long as your pet can reapply poisond and prevent the stack from resetting, that 1500/10 will continue to be the damage-calculation long after the effects of your mega-high RAP have dissipated.
This is The Whole Scorpid Thing: Jam that RAP and +Spell Damage, let your scorpid drop a massive initial Scorpid Poison and make him keep applying poison so the stack doesn't reset... and your scorpid can be doing rogue-like damage forever.
Just how high have the initial hits of Scorpid Poison been and how much damage can Scorpid Poison do? BRK has seen screenshots where Scorpid Poison is doing 1100 nature damage every tick. No, that's not a typo, every tick. And we're sure some of you are going to put in the comments how, against certain bosses, that number can double.
The question now becomes: How do we keep the stack from recalculating the initial hit; how do we keep the stack from resetting? Well, we need two things:
First, we need to cram Focus down our pet's throat so that he can cast Scorpid Poison whenever its cooldown is up. Therefore, we want two talent points in Go For The Throat and a high crit-percentage. Every poison-cast costs 30 Focus and we need to replenish at least that much every four seconds after the initial three strikes so our pet can keep reapplying Scorpid Poison every four seconds.
Second, we need our pet to not miss. With Scorpid Rank 5, the stack will reset after 8 seconds. If our pet were to miss once the stack would reset. But with Scorpid Rank 4, the stack will reset after 10 seconds. This allows our pet to miss once and still keep the stack going as long as he hits on his next poison attack. This is why practitioners of the Rogue-Scorpid Trick train only Scorpid Poison Rank 4; it gives them a safety buffer for pet-misses.
What are some pitfalls of this Scorpid Poison technique?
You need to be able to jam that initial poison-hit as high as possible and one cannot do that on every trash mob. Most hunters will save their massive initial hit for boss fights and just use their scorpid like any other pet until then.
The boss cannot be immune to poison, natch.
Your pet cannot die mid-fight. If you're not used to micromanaging your pet you'll have to learn to do it.
And finally you have to hope Blizzard doesn't break out the Hunter Nerf Bat and smack scorpids back to obsecurity like they did with the windserpents. Find those squishies, sacrifice them good and pray the hunter-programmers accept our offerings.
Daniel Howell continues his quest to get Kitty Saliva classified as a pet attack as the hunter-pet duo extraordinaire known to lore as BigRedKitty. More of his theorycrafting and slanderous belittling of the lesser classes can be found at bigredkitty.blogspot.com.
[Fan art by Moony]















Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
8-08-2007 @ 3:15PM
Levi said...
Move along, nothing to see here...
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 3:15PM
Sonvar said...
Keep in mind for this scenario I'm not taking blocks, parries, or dodges into effect. If I'm playing a Draenei Hunter with two points in Animal Handler shouldn't I use the Rank 5 Scorpid Poison as my pet really shouldn't be missing since they have a 5% hit chance?
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8-08-2007 @ 3:16PM
Arp said...
Sweet post.
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 3:22PM
Snukums said...
They are jus going to make them so that whenever it's the Sting is refreshed, it also refreshes the damage with the current SP bonus when it's refreshed.
And just a stupid correction, alsmot 100% sure you cannot pop two AP boosting trinkets at the same time, since all of them (should) have shared cooldowns. Unless there is one obscure trinket that doesn't share CD and therefore will get nerfed in the future
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8-08-2007 @ 3:24PM
Levi said...
@Sonvar,
Against a boss (effectively level 73), your pet has a base 8.6% chance to miss. And then you have to factor in the dodges and parries. It is easy to imagine a scenario when Scorpid Poison falls off, even tanks 3/4.
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 3:39PM
Jon said...
Shhhhh -- don't tell our dirty little secret.
Actually, I have heard hunters argue about whether or not this is an exploit... most say it is, I happen to agree with the ones that think its not.
The first time I used my scorpid in a boss fight was against Illhoof and he took 100,000 damage from my pet. (I don't have huge RAP, so I can get between 500-600 dmg per tick with everything popped.)
And I thought, Omigod there is no way this is going to stay, however having used it for awhile, its not an easy application... you must pay attention to the pet, to the fight and two misses in a row or not enough crits and the scorpid Poison resets. This takes focus, talent and luck... sounds to me like much of WoW.
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8-08-2007 @ 3:59PM
Karandar said...
My guess is this is working as intended. My druid's Lifebloom works the same way. As long as I keep refreshing a stack of Lifeblooms, I continue to get the +healing bonus from my trinkets on each tick.
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 4:03PM
JJ said...
For crying out loud, you people just can't help picking at him, can you? I swear, I'm just waiting to hear someone correct him for using "to" instead of "too". (No, he didn't, I'm just offering an example...)
The point of the post is not the nitty-gritty details of the math, and he's not telling you to go find yourself a scorpid pet and get going on Vashj. He's just relating a very amusing and useful trick, one that is STILL AMAZING even if he, what, made an error in the third decimal place? And for those of you insisting that this can't work due to miss rates...him, perhaps you might not have noticed the other posters who are seconding that this DOES work? Ah, and about that 'you can't pop two trinkets at once comment'--whether or not that's possible, considering that he said it in the same breath as 'sacrifice a squishy to the spell-casting gods', I wouldn't take it literally.
I'm all for getting the math right, and sharing a friendly tip here and there, but the persistant tone of 'BRK's an idiot because of X' is starting to sound pathetic, particularly given that the only thing you can criticize him on this week is a couple minor math errors.
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8-08-2007 @ 4:21PM
BillDoor said...
As another poster mentioned, Lifebloom stacks work the same way, as of 2.1, I think. Blizzard seems to be okay with that, I wonder if any other stacking spells work the same way also?
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 4:21PM
BillDoor said...
As another poster mentioned, Lifebloom stacks work the same way, as of 2.1, I think. Blizzard seems to be okay with that, I wonder if any other stacking spells work the same way also?
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8-08-2007 @ 4:24PM
Paul said...
@9 i couldn't agree more
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8-08-2007 @ 4:41PM
For the Pie said...
Of course we must sacrifice BRK to the math gods. He couldn't blog his way out of a wet paper sack. Even if we gave him an outline and a spell checker program. In the end, I am pretty sure his cat does most of the writing as he is probably drunk most of the time. The only reason you should read Big Red Kitty is for the cool art by Moody.
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8-08-2007 @ 4:50PM
Dedmorozh said...
If you all remember the WS nerf. At least part of the reasoning given for the nerf was so that there was not one end-all-be-all pet for hunters.
I do have a scorpid pet that I use for raiding. his name, IncomingNerf.
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8-08-2007 @ 5:57PM
Kief said...
It's the same mechanic that affects all over-time spells. The 1st application's spell damage modifier is what is used for all ticks over the spell effect's duration. This is not specific to the scorpid poison, it is not a bug.
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 6:04PM
Rich said...
Time to train a scorpid for my huntard alt.
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 6:29PM
Aesa said...
You have the damage coefficient for Scorpid Poison wrong. It's a DoT, not a simple instant cast spell, so you get the coefficient by dividing the DoT duration by 15 seconds. For Ranks 1-4 this ends up being:
10/15 = 66.67% of spell damage
Reply
8-08-2007 @ 7:00PM
Lokse said...
The scorpid poison trick does not stack for multiple pets without using different ranks on each pet. Similar to not being able to stack multiple Curse of Weaknesses on a mob, etc.
The scorpid mechanic is working as intended in my opinion. They are a mediocre pet in most circumstances, which shine on a VERY specific type of fight against opponents which are specifically not immune to poison (and a heck of a lot of bosses are.) The spell is also a DoT, not an instant, which warlocks can attest DO gain higher spell damage bonus than isntants.
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8-08-2007 @ 9:50PM
TheronShadowstorm said...
As a BM raiding hunter id like to add a few things.
For a BM Hunter, Unleashed Fury 5/5 gives me a 20% damage edge versus a hunter without it.
I also would like to point out that a pets focus regen rate is 25 focus per 4 seconds. Cost to cast Poison is 30 focus. So really, you only need to spend 1 talent point in GFTT. Thats enough to keep your focus up high enough as long as you crit once in awhile. For BM hunters though, all you need is 1 point in Bestial Discipline. That effectively raises your pets focus regen to 37 focus per 4. Again, more than you need.
Reply
8-09-2007 @ 1:56AM
Vixenytli said...
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!
I guess all my whining on your site got noticed. Eh, well, momma always said the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
As a Scorpid hunter this was immensely useful to me. I didn't realize the whole first-hit x whatever thing. i will have loads of fun experimenting now. It also explains why some mobs die so incredibly fast.... I've been accidentally maxing out that first poison.
I really really really hope the programmers don't nerf my pinchy pet. He is wonderful, a truly rare breed.
Also- Brk- Thank you for getting some attitude back. This post was saucy, i like it. lost of facts to back it up too, even better. Also- I was going to give you a hard time and say that scorpid poison gets up to 44/8 seconds, but you covered it, so I won't complain. :)
Great job, incredibly useful, and much appreciated!
Reply
8-09-2007 @ 7:48AM
ProMinx said...
In response to 4, the badge of tenacity is +150 agility on use, but counts as a defensive trinket so it doesn't share cooldown. These are the kinds of things you would learn if you played a useful class that could provide nominal DPS, had a reliable CC, or was bright enough not to use an agro dump standing right next to a healer. Hunters are not raid viable. You fill a DPS/CC role with 2 bodies, neither of which can provide half the dps of a warlock, rogue, fury warrior, feral druid, or fire mage...and you whine at healers when *THEY* let your useless pet die. Stop whining that they're taking away what obviously qualifies as an exploit and just reroll a useful character (assuming you ever want to see anything heroic or any raid).
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