It's nice that everyone can get to 70, but it's really quite frustrating to spend an hour looking for a group for a Heroic instance, because five different people say they can go, and then none of them realize that they need to be keyed.

Or, there was this guy who was trying to get me to do Caverns of time with me, and he was talking about how he needed to get a key from it for something or another. How do you go through the Kara key quest without knowing what it's for?

Or the multiple times people have agreed to come tank a mech run and show up in druid healing gear, or 2 handed weapons and refuse to switch to a shield (and then yell at me for not keeping them alive...)

So, it would be nice if players were forced to learn a little bit more about their characters/instance mechanics if they get to 70, but of course, that would mean less money for blizzard, so god forbid.

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easy to learn, hard to master ...
one of the best gameconcepts IMO

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Blizzard should put a barriere at some point in the game, to divide the serious from the casual. It's like in sport. We all do enjoy a bit of ball kicking with some friends, but we wouldn't dream of asking some A-league to play with us. It's just a different world.

Of couse, this doesn't mean a separate game. Just the same environment, but some of its features can be accessed only after you get "invited" by more of those who are already there.

What's the point in trying a 40-men raid if you're not really interested in terms of committment? Or if you don't care to learn your character? I think these people have all the rights to play WoW! But they would be in another league. And they could, of course, swap league anytime, providing they show they have what it takes and they get the invites.

It would be a flexible system, based on the will to make an effort rather than incoherent concepts like "l33t" o "n00b".

To take the sport example again, while not everyone can be another Pelé or a Maradona, almost everyone can try. But you don't get in A-league just by asking or being there. You prove you can. If you can't or won't, you can have the casual fun most people have and enjoy, by playing soccer in the backyard with your friends. In he same world where the Peles and Maradonas live.

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I like Warcraft much more than my last excursion into fantasy MMO's: FFXI. That game was one that made me not want to play at all. Losing levels when you die, having 3/4 of your crafting skills blow up in your face and maybe losing a valuable piece of equipment, paying for *each* character you made, getting quests with no idea where they were and having to spend hours running everywhere with no way back home when you died and had all your gear unequipped and lost a level.. or two. That made me *hate* that game. Sure, it was challenging, but I don't have hours and hours to spend on a game every day. At least Warcraft rewards people that are casual players with the XP bonus for being logged off, being able to solo to a certain point and having RP and PvE servers for people that are less competitive minded.

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I agree that there should be some kind of barriers or obstacles in the game, if only to make sure that players have picked up the skills that they need in order to adequately fill their roles as they progress.

Just last night I was taking an alt through Sunken Temple, and during every major encounter our resto shaman would end up drawing agro to himself. Once I started paying more attention to what he was doing, he was basically standing in one place spamming heals; afterwards he ignored every attempt to suggest ways to manage his agro (like, oh, something simple like dropping a totem designed to pull agro?).

Everyone has their favourite story about the fury warrior or retri paladin that (a) insists s/he can tank the instance, (b) can't hold agro, and (c) complains that s/he isn't being healed enough.

Every ten levels or so there should be some kind of "Trial" quests to drill these things into you.

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@3

That barrier is already there. Either you (and your guild) have the commitment to see the endgame content, or you don't. The barrier isn't some line in the sand, but rather like a filter that serves to block those guilds who are unwilling or unable to commit the time and resources to see the end game content. Alot of guilds will see Kara, and many of those will see Gruul's Lair. After that...not as many will probably see SSC, and so on, til you have only the most committed guilds running Black Temple. If Blizzard institutes some sort of hard and fast rule on who can and cannot see parts of the game, then the "I pay 15 dollars a month" crowd will have a fit, and for once, I would agree with them. I pay money every month, the same amount, in fact, as any member of Death and Taxes. I have every right to see The Black Temple, if I so choose. I, personally, choose not to, and with that it means I choose not to advance my playing abilities to that of your average hardcore raider, or even casual raider for that matter. As far as end-game content, the hardcore raiders are already arrogant enough when it comes to stuff like this, and the last thing they need is some sort of official line from Blizzard agreeing with their over-inflated view of themselves. Its sad enough to see people decide their own self-worth, and the worth of other based on the make-believe armor that they are wearing, and no one needs Blizzard stepping in and making an official decree that confirms these people's already twisted view of themselves.

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The game is fine the way it is. There is no way (or need) to separate or invite people to another "level". That's just asking for more trouble and abuse from the people who decide they and their friends are "l33t" than everyone else.

I work tech service for an electronics company and all day long I get calls from some of the dumbest people alive. I deal with the noobs in game as I do on the phone. I roll my eyes and move on.

There is nothing you can do to help alot of these people. They play the game they want and nothing is going to change that. When I do join those rare PUGs and I encounter one of them. I spend a couple minutes explaining why it won't work, if there isn't some sort of compromise then go elsewhere. I don't dwell on it, I don't let it get to me.

I expect a certain level of competence when I group with people. If I don't see it I have no problem going "kthanxbai". I am not going to punish these people cause they are stupid or clueless. I am not vendictive like some people who play this game. I am not an elitist asshole who thinks if you aren't up to my caliber you don't deserve to play the game. Idiots and stupid people are every where. Just deal with it and move on.

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As has been said, the barrier is already there, it's just de facto instead of official.

I think the real point of WoW "not punishing failure" is that it moves the yardstick. In, say, EQ, if you die, you lose things you have already earned AND miss an opportunity to get the payoff that you were working towards. In WoW, everything you already have is secure (people like security!) but failure bars you from acheiving even more of the copious rewards available.

Essentially, I'm arguing that what WoW did was add more rewards, made them easier to obtain, and then made it so failure simply delayed those rewards rather than punishing you. Psychologically (in Operant Conditioning), denial of reward (technically called denying negative reinforcement) is functionally equivalent to punishment, though they are discreet concepts/methods.

To make a comparison, EQ emphasized punishment and WoW emphasizes loss of reward. Since you were working toward less of a reward in EQ, failing to acheive it didn't hurt as much as it does in WoW. What hurt in EQ was losing what you had already acheived.

Also, keep in mind that the noob at 70 had to work just as hard as you and I did to get there. While we were researching and making sure we were min/maxed and super-efficient, he/she was plodding along inefficiently. Everyone who is 70 has "paid" for it, whether they have the knowledge or just the perseverence and time to make it.

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What about some sort of scoring system? As has been mentioned, getting to 70 doesn't require a whole lot of skill or knowledge of your class. Hell, my first char is almost 70, and I'm still largely clueless! But what if the game took into account time played, instances run, HK's, gear, etc. and rolled it up into some type of 'character score'. Obviously the hard core raiders would have a much higher minimum standard than say a quick pug, but wouldn't that be a better way to weed out the noobs? And you could always be working on your score. Run more lower-level instances, work on getting better gear, or just spend more time playing your class. I don't know what other stats might be included, and who knows, it might just be another way for the l33t a-holes to degrade the noobs.

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@9

A great idea. Unfortunately, it would be used to degrade the noobs. I have to admit, it would be nice, say in a Mana Tombs PUG, to look up the score of the tank and find out that say, on a scale of 0 to 100, he's, say, 30. But, it'd just turn into some big high school popularity contest, with everyone having a number on their heads.

Some classes, unfortunately, there is no way to tell until you start playing on a team with the person, if they are going to be idiots or not. Warriors though, are simple: if they refuse to put on a shield, or don't have one, then you can safely run away knowing bad things are about to happen. I can't think of a single time things have gone well with a warrior tanking using a 2-hander.

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I think a lot of people are on the mark with the statements that the game already has an invisible barrier that separates those people who are looking to devote time to the game from those who are casual. Incorporating scores and invites and all of that kind of stuff creates the type of elitism that can ruin a game.

Keep it the way it is because obviously it's working, Blizzard has no need to reinvent the way the game works.

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@10

Yeah, you're probably right.

Alright, here's another option: 1, make the score's display optional. It can be turned on or off, depending on whether you want others to see it. The ones that don't care, or that have a high score will flaunt it, and those that are working on theirs can hide and only turn it on if/when a group or guild asks for it.

2, How about a review system? After you've grouped with someone, you can give them a thumbs up rank. The more positive reviews you got, the better your score. And only have positive votes an option; no 'thumbs down' option. I could see the tank that can't hold aggro voting down a perfectly good healer for not keeping him alive, or any number of scenarios. I think Xbox live already does this with their star rating system.

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After seeing both ends I sort of like having a middle ground between noobs and hardcore.

Noobs can make 5 mans annoying but 25 man raiding guilds full of "hardcores" talking about their in game achievments as having some real world importance are just as annoying.

I was on an alt in Arca one day in a pug. The shadow priest whispers me and goes "dude your gear sucks" then got the nerve to get upset when I replied "I paid 250K for my house bet living with your parents sucks".

Seriously hardcores compensating for real life shortcomings are about as annoying as noobs.

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The game is successful and popular due to it's low risk design. There is no need to create a barrier in the game. You are going to find good and bad players all through the level range. To progress to the TBC raid instances you need people who know what they are doing. Raids are normally 1 or 2 guild affairs of people who know their class. You don’t expect to PUG Karazhan or Gruul, you do it with your guild.

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Already is the limbo stick you have to get under. No, you can't come on our 5-man becuase you don't have the gear, spell damage, etc., etc., etc. No, you can't be part of our guild because...... And I've found that most guilds, not all, but most, are only revolving around the top few players/members of it and everyone else gets used and abused. Nope, we're done with that instance and on to the next one. You don't have the gear or the key part from it - well, sucks to be you, just PUG it. Don't forget to show up properly specced for your appointed guild run tomorrow though and bring lots of mana pots for the healers too.

To add to that will be punishing people who already have a hard time getting groups together to do instances because they're not in an "elite" raiding guild or don't have 5 RL friends that are also playing that they can group with.

It's a totally different thing to solo and to group. I know I play my toons differently with each situation. And to be expected to know every instance and how to pull every mob in said instance and what boss does what.... that's just a bit ridiculous. No one ever allows for a learning curve or remembers that once upon a time it was them learning the instance or their first time there.

It would be nice if Blizz would make it so one toon could "hire" a group of NPCs so we too could have the chance to see some of that content only accesible to the chosen few as it is now.

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I'm glad it's an easy game.

As has already been said, there's already a pretty good filter in place to separate the noobs from the rest of the crowd. It's called dungeons. Instances throughout the game become progressively more testing of your skills, and so are a filter. You don't learn how to play your class in solo play out in the world -- all you learn then is how to kill something else without dying, maybe how to kill it faster than last time.

So these dungeons teach you how to play. If you never "get it", you're going to find it harder and harder as the game goes on to get into a PuG. Maybe you'll get into a friendly guild, and your guildmates will teach you how to play.

What happens if you don't play dungeons? Well, you get to play as much solo as you want. It's pretty unlikely that someone is going to level to 70 and suddenly have a desire to hit up raiding dungeons. If that does happen, they need to learn to play their class. My wife is one of those who doesn't like dungeons. She doesn't go in them. She knows that she's missing out on some stuff, but doesn't have the patience to go in, and that's fine with her. When she hits 70, she'll be happy and start a new character to take to 70. Fine.

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I'm reasonably serious about the game as I like to be good as things that I do, but I like the game the way it is. If you see someone LFG and you want to make sure they have a certain spec or levl of gear... check the Armory. You don't need a toon score, you don't need levels that require invites to get beyond. Check their Armory. Don't want to run with a Fury Warrior tank? Check before joining the group. You can't tell if they play well, but the odds are that a properly specced and geared toon at least has a player behind them with a clue

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A number of the comments here seem to be of the "idiots I have known in PUGs" variety, and not to be flip but there's a perfectly good mechanism that doesn't involve tagging people with some kind of scarlet A for Abominable if they happen not to be very skilled or make poor or bizarre gear choices: a guild.

At some point, I lost my tolerance for rogues who insisted on pulling three elite mobs at a time and then spammed their "Heel me!!!" macros; for warriors who would start a fight and then go mine a node while my pally was struggling to tank the mob they'd abandoned (and I was a miner too); [insert favorite PUG horror story here]. So my husband and I started a guild, and peopled it with like-minded spirits, and now we never have to think about how other,random people play ever again, and it's really quite nice.

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Nobody cares about your 250K house in WoW. That's what makes it great. It only matters what you have achieved in the World of Warcraft.

Frankly, your comeback sucks. So who gives a shit if you have a 10 million dollar mansion? If your gear sucks and you're not properly equipped for what you're trying to do, you get told off. Just accept it.

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From my personal experiences, I find that the super hardcore players who "know what they are doing" are far more annoying than someone who doesn't know, but is willing to learn.

Sure there is the "knows just enough to be dangerous" helpless group in there too that has no clue, but thinks they do, but by and large I find that most people who are playing casually will take recommendations if they are posed correctly (like in a whisper over group chat).

And with regards to creating barriers, or a review system, or a ranking system, or whatever metrics you want: who cares? There are enough ways that hardcore players can wave their Warcraft e-peens around as it is. Now instead of "lrn2play" or "get to Black Temple" it will be "get a 80 ranking" or "get 200 good reviews". There are already literally hundreds of barriers in the game. Blizzard was just skillful enough to create them (for the most part) without most people realizing it. All in all the game system as it stands it amazing. All my friends who used to play EQ moved over to WoW and never looked back because of all the polished systems Blizzard had worked out (no major penalties for death, incredibly robust quest system). Ffs you know what rewards you will get before you start the quest. And you have choices for rewards!

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