I thought I heard the sound of a million raids dying at once because they don't have mana efficient healers anymore. :O

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I'm doing great dps'ing as ret.
just want some utility that others take notice of.
and threat reducing talents.

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More Dots!!!!!


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Okay Stop Dots.

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I'm all for improved raid utility. In any PvE raid a ret paladin is a liability. Low DPS (yes, low. Equally geared Ret pally damage is very bad compared to most other DPS class and spec), lousy heals, bad threat generation for off-tanking. I've always hated nub ret pallies, and I never failed to laugh scornfully at noob ret pally in arenas (the type that doesn't heal), while they insist on dpsing me while I simply outheal them (even in my prot spec).

An increased DPS however I do not agree upon. Sustained probably is needed for raids, but A high DPS plate machine who can heal himself (or others) and can go immune just yells 'imbalance'. It's a fine line to tread here.

But I think Blizz can pull it off. DPS retnubs won't be happy, but I probably can love any utility that I can bring to the table should ret be buffed. Wonder what it'll be though... I've been thinking along the lines of improved judgements (+50% more healing/mana return on JoL/JoW would be lovely)

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Its going to be a pretty tough slog convincing raid leaders that Ret is a viable spec, because the single biggest problem in doing it is the Holy tree.

So long as Paladins are widely considered the game's best single target healers and DPS is a dime a dozen, Ret will have an uphill battle.

The other problem is that its hard to measure just how effective a Ret Pally's utility is. They can add 2% damage to a group and 3% to all meleers crit rates, but figuring out what that actually translates into is much harder then reading "Rogue X is above Pally Y on damage meters."

A sustained DPS boost is probably all thats needed to actually balance it, but I'm not sure that anything short of an idiotically overpowered DPS tree would actually break the stranglehold that Holy Pallies have in the eyes of raid leaders.

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Blizzard only made 4 healing classes for the entire game. If you don't want to heal, go reroll a dps class. Stop wasting time.

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@6, the funny thing is 3 of those healing classes are hybrids. Go figure.

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About time. If the class was a bit more viable, then raid leaders would consider having ret pallys. Keyword is consider, which currently isn't even being done for the most part. Just asking for a chance is all. You still need plenty of healers though.

Afterall, the "leveling spec" (as stated by the DEVs) should be the end game spec right?

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Err....Fix Shammys? Mine is gathering dust....

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My ret pally is sitting in Limbo waiting for anything to change for the better. It isn't just the issue with raiding, but the overall build for the paladin, regardless of concentration is of limited use to the solo player on a PvP server (where I play). Anything could be considered an improvement, because nothing in the ret tree is useful beyond lvl 40 PvE. Avenger's Shield is about the only thing worth striving for on all of the paladin trees, and that is in the wrong tree for ret pallies.

Ret is just a weak tree for anything beyond the first half of the game. There is nothing I can see at the moment that draws me to continue. When opposing players 2 levels below me run towards me in Arathi, weapons ablaze instead of running away, it is obvious that no one considers the paladin a viable class other than diehard paladin players. While, and I have said this before recently, while players 2 levels higher run away screaming from my little gnome warlock.

I've never been an advocate of perfect balance in a game, as I believe each class and race has it's strengths and weaknesses (I believe that my gnome should not be able to keep up with my buddy's NElf mage, for example). However, the paladin lore is one of strength and devotion, but I find it hard to be devoted to my paladin when he is lacking so in strength.

Maybe, and this is simply my opinion, but maybe the ret tree could emphasize better the Judgement chains. Like a warlock's DoTs, a Ret pally would be feared not for his steel blades, but for the wrath of god that is dropped heavily upon his foes. Seals could be dropped on a target similar to a warlock's DoTs, or chained together like some of the rogue's skills. Drop the hammer, just like with the rogue finishing moves, and unleash the fury of the gods on your enemy.

Of course that might be totally unbalanced.

I want to believe in my paladin again...please give me a reason to trudge through beyond level 42.

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Fear Ward Aura?

plz?

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@6

"only 4 healing classes"?

Wow! Considering there are 9 classes "only" is almost 1/2 of the classes! I don't hear people saying that about shaman (who are terribly mana efficient healers), shadow priests (who do a good amount of damage, especially considering they are the one "pure" healing class), or moonkin druids (and I know 2 that consistently battle each other for top spot in dmg in 10 man raids AND pvp).

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It's funny you mention lore and then talk about Night Elf Mages. xD

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Think he meant BElf mage. Or was being sarcastic about moonkins...

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@ MEHRUNES
armory link or I call shenanigans ...

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Here is what will happen.

You get into Kara.

Your RL tells you so spend DKP on healing gear.

Same thing that happens to me as protection.

As long as the healing tree is so strong, non holy paladins will always be presured to respec.

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What would be wrong with a talent that converts stats to spell power? Like the Druid skill to convert STR to INT.

Or allowing JoC to make the affected susceptible to ALL schools of magic? Like Misery, or Curse of Elements or Shadows.

Or upping a 2H's chance to stun, slow, or increase casttime? Like a specced random proc for any weapon.

Or having an aura passively debuff enemies? Devo reduces mobs armor, Retrib reduces healability, FR increases frost damage, FrR increases Fire damage, SR increases Nature damage, etc.

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Obligatory "Shamans keep getting ignored" post.

I *loved* completing Terokkarantula (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10921)last night and seeing that 2 of the 4 quest rewards were Paladin rewards...

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@13 & 14

Sorry...got two of his favorite toons crossed...he has a NE Priest and a Draenei Mage. That's what I get for running my mouth...

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