You shouldn't be penalized because you did the pre-raid work by gearing yourself up to help the raid as much as possible. You should definately roll on that staff and I hope you get it. I'm tired of the lazy people in my guild who won't even enchant their stuff. Gotta do work to get rewards. You did the work- now comes the fun part.

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My basic line here is simple. If you are there for the drop you have the option to spend the dkp on the item. You can't ignore dkp as dkp is what keeps the high attendance people in check grabbing every item.

I am also an advocate of bid dkp systems so first and early drops of particular items tend to go for more dkp. Thus consuming the dkp of the top 10%. These types of systems keep it fair and balance the desire to no penalize the high attendance members vs the newcomers who need gear badly.

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I've always been of the opinion that helping gear the group as a whole should take priority over individual progress (at least in raiding).

We don't use DKP in Kara/Gruul's/etc and things like that staff are free-roll. The idea though is that a 20% upgrade to someone in blues is better for the group overall than a 2% upgrade to the epic players.

Sure, you may have worked a lot harder but you're now to the point where it doesn't matter what you do. You can't progress by yourself, you need other (geared) players to go further. By taking that weapon you are only holding yourself back.

Is that really fair? Maybe not. But at least try to be happy for that player in blues who's week you just made.

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I agree that a player shouldn't be penalized because they took the initiative to get rep rewards or do constant Heroics to get Badge rewards, while others didn't bother.

Helping the group is fine, but I draw the line at items that you had to get 'on your own' like rep rewards or a drop from grinding.

If it's upgrading an epic that you got in Karazhan on an earlier run, then I'd pass. It does make sense to improve the guild over yourself. I just don't like the welfare players taking advantage of that.

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I think it comes down to how "together" your guild is.

If your guild is hardcore and hangs out all the time, then maybe you are friends. I would trust a friend to use the items he gets to help me. So if something dropped and either I could get it for 2% upgrade, or my friend could get it for 20% upgrade, it would go to the 20% person. This is a group mentality.

However, if you do not trust your guild, and you feel no attachment to it, or certain guild mates, then a self-centered point of view may be in order.

Another factor is the size of your guild. If your guild is only 25 strong, and you are doing Kara and further, it leads me to believe you have a good team going. This might mean the 20% would get it.

If your guild is 540 strong, and you have many different groups doing Kara sometimes, you might not have a strong team built. Your success may rely on some people coming to the raid being really good singularly, because some people coming will be horrid. If your guild is 540 strong, not all will be good players.

If you owe someone something, give it to them.
If you do not owe someone something, you can do what you want.

If your guild's rules are ridiculous, change it or leave.

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Had you recently gotten an epic weapon from another raid, then I would say you should probably hold off. Since that is not the case however, and you did a lot of work to purchase you current weapon, then you should not feel guilty about taking the new weapon. Sure, passing on it may help someone with a blue, but you (having the better gear, will no doubt be to the majority of raids, and thus will be helping out the guild more than someone who has not put in as much effort.

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Helping gear up the rest of the raid helps you progress, which helps you to get even better gear quicker. Sure you could go for the staff now, but if you let a blue-geared caster have it, it will help you down even better bosses, with even better upgrades for you. So it's far from a waste to help your other guild members gear up. Furthermore, it creates a better working atmosphere, and said guildie might pass on a small upgrade for him when it's a big upgrade for you later on.

It's basically a choice of being a team player, and helping your raid progress, or trying to horde all the loot so you can be higher on the damage meters.

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IMO Rolling rules in groups/raids should be very simple. If you need the "need" it. Otherwise "greed" it. Meaning that if the item is a definite upgrade for your toon at the time of the roll aka you can\should equip it immediatley. No alts should be considered. Dont need just so you DE.

As far as some ppl who think they work harder than others is a too general statement that, although will fit a lot of WoWers, doesnt fit everyone that has poor gear. My character doesnt have the best gear but I will never get it if I dont have a chance for it. I play wow cause its a fun game. I dont want to play just to farm a thousands in gold and spend half that on over priced enchants that has the possibilty to be replaced the next time I run an instance.

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IMO, you should have passed. If you take all loots like this, your going to be far ahead from the rest and eventually just have to wait for everyone else. If you let others get gear, they can perform better and overall be better for the raid. This has happened to me... being left behind like this really sucks. You get a gear upgrade, then you get picked for more raids. As a result you get even more gear and totally overpower others in your guild who also need raids. Just my 2 cents.

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It's the responsibility of each member of the raid to prepare themselves gear-wise, consumable-wise, and to do their homework on the fights. If you have guildies walking into Karazhan without the best gear they can get their hands on, then it is their own damn fault. Not showing up to a raid 100% prepared is letting down everyone else in the raid.

The exception being of course is if your in a casual guild that only raids once or twice a week and isn't worried about progression. At that point its a different ball game.

But if you guild is serious about progressing, or simply strives to their best in raiding then simply put you should roll on the item.

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I have go agree with Tinwhisker. I'm in a small guild and although that changes things a little we still have to deal with people of higher and lower skill, fortunately we're at a relatively close gear level. That being said when things like epic tanking trinkets drop in heroics it's generally understood that if our main tank is there you pass so the group as a whole can move on.

That being said if someone hasn't spent a copper on enchants because their epic flight skill (or a more heinous situation which I've seen where pre-BC a paladin refused to use greater blessings because he was trying to save for said skill which wasn't even available yet) we've got another issue all together and that person is being greedy which in my mind hurts the group more then not trying to spread the loot.

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rep rewards don't count as epics imo cause everyone can get it and its easily farmed for

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Do you actually like the people in your guild? If you then maybe you should start offering to help your 'competition' get the items you have now? It's true that it may be more work, but 1) they get the same thing you have so they can't be pissed off that you're taking a minor upgrade 2) convince them to 'pay it forward' i.e. have them help others so you have even less people with the gear and 3) suddenly you have a bunch of people with better gear in the guild who are happy with you for helping them.

Of course, if you don't care, then just roll anyway.

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In my opinion, give first priority to the person wearing blues who shows up for raids, plays well, brings consumables etc., then to the person for whom it is a smaller upgrade who is prepared for raids and plays well, and last to the person who is wearing blues but doesn't show up all that often and isn't a very good player.

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It is "OK" to roll on this if it is an upgrade.

However, if you run weekly with these guys, you may have to ask yourself if it is more important to upgrade your equipment, or more important to advance the raid so you can get more total drops and/or move on to higher level raids. It may be in your long term interest pass for that reason.

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I say it depends on how your guild is going on karazhan. If you have it on farm status, then go ahead and roll on it. If not, then you should probably do what's best for progression and pass.

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Let me add to what I said above.

I wouldn't be asking whether I was being "penalized" for doing the hard work to get my epics before the raid. What I'd really ask myself is whether the I am OK raiding with a group whose members may not be as dedicated as I. Should I be running with a group of people that matches my dedication? Or do I like these people enough that I don't care?

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For those of you like tedger (#11), you're right about people who don't get things enchanted; they don't deserve the drops (usually).

But it's a relatively moot point as you shouldn't be taking those players to raids anyway. They likely don't have the gear to even survive the trash pulls.

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1. If you are upgrading an item you earned through a rep grind, then roll. You have already shown your contribution to the raid by farming instances over and over to get the reputation to buy an item that benefits everyone. There's no reason why you should suffer for it, when anyone can do the same grind as you.

2. If you are upgrading an item you won from a previous run in the same instance, pass.

3. If you are upgrading/sidegrading an item you crafted, pass if your competition is a regular raider and they are either using a blue item or something that is a "tier" lower than you. If they don't have a high attendance record, or are a trial member, take the item, as it will benefit the raid more.

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It boils down to whether drops should go to those who need them the most or to those who have worked hardest to get them in the first place and therefore believe that they deserve to get the drop. Relative need lends itself to objective measurement. Claiming that you deserve an item more than others is a good way to initiate drama.

Needier players may also be newer players who have worked hard to earn their current equipment. They may have once belonged to unsupportive, casual guilds before joining yours. They might have more RL obligations than you do and subsequently less time to play. They may simply have been as unlucky as Big Red Kitty when it comes to epic drops. They might play well, help others and are valuable if somewhat underpowered members of the guild who will become significantly more valuable with better gear. Given the number of variables that need to be considered, there is probably no simple rule suitable for all cases.

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