Dear Mike,

More CC plzkthx.

>>-- Priests~ :D

(No, MC doesn't count since it takes me out of the fight as well.)

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OK, that is it. I have sat idle listening to how mages are getting the nerf, that they are not needed, and that we are a worthless class. You know what, throw at me what you will. I will not change class, I will not back down, and certainly won't let any other class put me out because of being worthless. We hold our own and we are DEFINITELY needed. The difference in not having a mage in the group/raid - repair bills and chance on death. So please, keep saying that we are "useless". You'll find out in the long run.

Rython
Blackhand - US

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One more thing, you may have gotten that last mark if you had mage CC.

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I've done a lot of the heroics without CC for lack of a mage. We did heroic Steamvaults with only one Priest for MC as CC and did just fine. In none heroics, it's really not needed though.

Once you get geared enough, its just chain pull and AoE through the 5 mans. A group with my pally tanking, two mages, and a shadow priest can go through Shadow Labs in 45 minutes and have Shattered Halls down to 30 minutes.

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Seems odd to me you don't mention your Warlock has CC ability: Seduce. It only works on humanoids, but there are more than a few naga it's worked really well on.

Or does CC only = poly in peoples minds?

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Hear Hear! I play a mage as my main and CC actually is probably one of the best things in SLab. Oh look, that assassin came at the start of the pull...oh look, he is a turtle now =P The mage class is the epitome of DPS and control (esp. frost). I have only known one rogue to out DPS me and he is in 25-man epics. And yes, MC is only good if your priest is not your MH.

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I love sheeps, er in a purely platonic CC way, as a mage. But I will say that use off CC tends to slow an instance down with marking and what not. I'd rather just burn through one as quickly as possible.

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I like to have Mage CC when possible, but I don't feel it is absolutely "needed" to be successful in any instance. When I am playing my Pally, I use Righteous Defense on a Macro with the healer as the target, and I spam that sucker. No one goes near the healer...ever. I am Ret spec and will fall if too many mobs gank me at once, but with stuns and repentance to help, I keep focus on one or two mobs while the group can kill off the rest. The healer is free to heal me when I need it. Rarely have any issues. Tanks love me too for backing them up when stuff goes wrong.

Hunters (All hunters are bad, mmmkay?) can be useful for temp CC as well. Silence shot is a saving throw when used correctly, and traps make healers warm and fuzzy. As long as the Hunter is not an idiot (good luck finding one of those), and does not feign death, you can get far.

My warlock is great for fear kiting if needed. I don't care for the Succy much, but it looks promising to use after the patch. Still, I don't think they will be a truly valid form of CC.

Rogues...If you can sap it, good. If not stun lock the dang thing.

Druids using sleep when needed make life easier, but I rarely see it used anymore.

I don't think Priest MC is a good method, so let them stick to either healing or DPS (although I still haven't seen a truly great Shadow DPSer, not saying they aren't out there).

Warriors should be your main form of CC...Don't pull aggro from them and keep them up. Great CC.

Shaman don’t offer much for CC, but a well played one can support the group enough to make up for it. Totems, some armor and a good choice of specs can make them worth taking in place of a Mage.

Like I said earlier, Mage CC is great, and I prefer it when it is available, but don’t let someone tell you that the group is doomed without a Mage. I have run Shadow Labs so many times it makes my head hurt. Done with and without a Mage many times. Again, I run it with my Pally most of the time, and I can just spam Righteous Defense to make up for the loss. I haven’t tried SL on my Rogue or Warlock, so maybe I should reserve judgment on group make-up when there isn’t a Pally there.

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Well maybe we're just not geared well enough - but my first experience in Heroic Slave Pens revealed that we didn't have *enough* CC. We had Fear, Seduce, Sheep, and Mind Control - and unless we got the group down to 5v1, we were done. Worse yet, there's a known bug that the bogstrok are immune to standard humanoid CC like seduce and mind control. I agree if you're running content that is far below your ability level, you don't need it - but if you're at level or trying something new, it's very necessary.

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@4

yeah i've heard enough about mages for one day. leave one article a day please.


@2 WTH are you talking about bro?

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I don't know what instance you were running but nothing in heroic underbogs casts mind control.

You are half right - crowd control is often unnecessary, even in heroics, with a well geared tank. However all of the things you list (kiting, cyclone, fear, mind control, kiting) are forms of crowd control, anyway. In another sense, so is an off-tank. Perhaps the point you're trying to make is that classes other than mages can CC. Did people really not know this?

Also tell your warlock to stop sucking. Seduce has no DR in PvE, it IS meant to be used as crowd control in instances, some stuff in heroics is immune but a lot isn't (even less after 2.1), and any warlock who says otherwise is in serious need of some l2p.

Finally mages are one of the worst CC class in heroic underbog. The only pulls where CC helps are the elementals near the beginning (i.e. banish), the larger bat packs (your moonkin should sleep) and the humanoid packs (seducable, but they hit like little girls). I run with a mage and we hardly ever sheep anything in there.

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Ok, your post makes a lot more sense in that context :) Heroic SP does have a lot of mass humanoid pulls and if your warlock wasn't seducing that's a lot to deal with at once. Your main problem though was running two full healers, you need a lot of DPS in heroics, and with a good tank, DPS > CC.

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Hunters can out-CC almost any class. Period.

Hunter Traps affect practically everything, we can trap a mob where we want it (not where it happens to be standing) and we can keep the traps going almost indefinitely.

Temp CC? Hardly.

You know what makes Hunter traps break? Warlocks who insist on dotting everything in sight. Mages who Frost Nova the crap out of everything for no reason except a mob was running at them (instead of letting the Hunter deal with it)... and so on ad nauseum.

YOU make the Hunter CC temporary, not Hunters.

Most Hunters are not horrible, most Hunters do not need to L2P, YOU need to learn to play with a Hunter and allow them to play their class the way they are supposed to.

There are no more bad Hunters then there are bad Mages, Paladins or anything else.

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Sooo...what you're saying is that any group is fine, as long as it's overgeared or you're ok with not finishing the instance? Yes. Yes, you're right...

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@4

Heh, but you get mail and a shield, too. We get... Power Word: Shield (now with 20% effect from +healing :P ) and fear (great for a wipe in crowded situations).

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@14 - Robert (and the general population)-

Allow me to be the warlock that jumps up and says that CC'ing with Seduce is no picnic. I've only played a mage up to 36- so no organized raiding with one, but in PUGs, idiots run rampant, and marking/identifying the mob to sheep is great, but as a general rule some people are just idiots. Breaking sheeping is terribly common.

The same goes for seducing, in my book (again, this is all personal experience). In a PUG, I can't be bothered with putting my Succy on seduce duty. We have too many mobs, and I seduce one (after marking and specifying it), then someone thinks it's cute to drop an AOE or similar effect that breaks my seduce, or specifically targets the seduced mob, and breaks it before I've even come close to the full duration. I see the floaty hearts stop- so I have to stop DoT'ing and recast seduce... Oh wait- succy's taking hits, recast is going to take too long...

Are you kidding me? In that kind of time and mana I could have (of all things) a blueberry OT'ing it, and have DPS'ed it down myself to halfway.

So Mike, your Warlock didn't suck, unless he was constantly summoning infernals as minions... alternate playstyles get the same thing done- isn't that what this post is about?

I've run numerous runs successfully without a mage CC. Granted, I'm a Warlock; I make my own CC, AOE suffering on a pack to take heat from a clothie, or DPS'ing something a mob down so fast it can't draw breath, let alone target me and attack. From my class standpoint, a mage on CC duty is somewhat 'wasted'. Or at least, when I'm in the group, I think it is.

This also goes to pulling... There are some instances with large groups of mobs - you can't help but pull 5-6 on your 5 man party. But more often than not, you're looking at errors in pulling that cause people to 'need' additional CC. A well geared and fluidly working party of people with good communication makes it's own CC. Whether it's chain fearing, the 'zerg it down' approach, or an off tank (sometimes an off-off tank), I think mage CC is somewhat overrated. You can cast polymorph, or throw down DPS in the meantime...

It's all a tradeoff really, like Mike said.

Chris

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Funnest SL run ever? Moonkin, holy priest, shadow priest, shadow priest, prot pally. One hour 15 minutes end to end, no deaths. We had lots of CC, but not 'typical' CC, and just ran though the Labs like a hot knife through butter. Heck the .. that boss the calls the blueberries.. didn't have time to call a second one before he died! Let's hear it for non-stereotypic groups!

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