So, wait, I'm confused. Devastate going from a 41pt prot talent that revolves around tanking (though it's a pisspoor 41pt talent) to something that makes more sense in the fury tree? Why would a prot warrior worry about attacking with two weapons at once...if he's prot?

If anyone can, please fill in the blanks on this one.

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>So, wait, I'm confused. Devastate going from a 41pt
>prot talent that revolves around tanking (though
>it's a pisspoor 41pt talent) to something that makes
>more sense in the fury tree? Why would a prot
>warrior worry about attacking with two weapons at
>once...if he's prot?
>
>If anyone can, please fill in the blanks on this
>one.

Because prot warriors need to grind too? Think about the situation with Druid's. You get bear form for tanking and can switch to cat for dps. This would have been like that except that you use shield for tanking and DW for DPS rather than switching forms.

Alas it's not to be. What I don't understand is why they can't fix the problem rather than revert entirely?

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What I don't really understand is how this gear matching system actually works. I mean, does it look at what you have on? Most twinks are twinks because they like having an unfair advantage over their competitors. If it matches by what you are wearing, wouldn't they just queue up with some sub par gear (or naked for that matter) and then suit up once they get in to the battleground? That would be pretty lame but I can see that happening... a lot.
I'm hoping it looks at your inventory and bank slots for the best gear (ie: highest point value, level value, whatever) and just assumes you are wearing that whether you have it currently equiped or not. That's the only way I really see this having an impact. Of course, might that put a lot of strain on the server? Hmm. Curious.

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I thought I read that the Gear Matching system takes the gear you wore last time you were in a BG as a measurement to calculate that gear-specific value that will get you queued up for some BGs.

So in going into a BG naked wouldn't helb because in the BG you would still dress up.

On the Devastate nerf:
I HATE THEM! ..
Damn I hate going out to farm with my prot-warri. It's slow, it's problematic (adds will still get you into trouble), you eat for hours (8-10k hp), you need hours to kill anything.
And now they reverted Devastate back to nothing? Heck, with 5 full sunders on the mob I was doing like 300 dmg (don't count crits, in full off I merely get above 15%)!!! .. I can't see how 500 dmg when attacking with Dual Wield was overpowered?.

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If this gear thing works i shuld be good - last night I was in a 10 - 19 BG with 6 bef rogues all with curasder and +15 agi on there weps - we had 3 rogues with simmler weps and (as far as I can see) gear - the only we won was due to the allnce healing the twicks.

I don't mind people twiking (if you want to spend 300 + gold on a lvl 19 toon thats up to you) but when thay make the BG crap for the non l33t nomal players is just not on...

on the war narf - I think (think) thats its some thing to do with wars in the arena as thay were owning.

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The gear matching system has been a long time coming and if implemented properly would be the highlight of 2.1 for me.

As someone who obtains gear almost exclusively though PVP (pugging), the current state of battlegrounds is dismal indeed. While many people complain about battlegrounds not being any fun or not being balanced or not rewarding skillful play, I have never felt this way. With the exception of turtling in WSG I have never had a problem with any BG, and think they're all a blast. I could play EOTS, AB, and WSG all day. The only exception to this is AV.

AV has been nothing but trouble since it was released. In its current form it is at best PVE that gives you honor, and at worst a zerg fest that drains the life out of you and eats your soul. The only time I ever have any fun in AV is when I play defense with a group of skilled players, and how often does that happen?

Unfortunately, anyone who PUG PVPs will tell you that AV is where the money is at. Even at a loss, a 30 minute AV nets me more honor than 20 minute win in any other BG, and that's including on holiday weekends. Next EOTS, AB, or WSG weekend, look and see how many AVs are up. In my BG, no one even bothers with anything other than AV, and on AV weekends you'd better get a towel, because it's raining honor.

Now don't get me wrong, I love free honor. My Resilience rating loves free honor. The problem is, there is absolutely no reason to risk wasting time in any other BG when I am gauranteed at least 350 honor win or lose in an AV. Even if it's a stalemate it doesn't matter, collect your 250 honor, afk out, and you still come out ahead even with deserter debuff.

Now you'd think that the holiday weekends for the other BGs would be a time when people would stop playing AV for a second, but that just makes it worse. There aren't many premades queueing up during the regular week, but when a BG weekend rolls around the premades start popping up. Because of this, you have even less reason to play a BG on its weekend because your chance of getting curb stompted has just increased dramatically. Instead of the BG weekends making me want to play AV less, it just drives me deeper into its icy grasp.

If the BG matching system can allieviate this problem at all I would be very grateful. The obvious answer is that one day they will nerf honor in AV, and for my gear's sake, I hope this never happens, but I love the other BGs and would be estatic if I was able to justify playing them again.

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Elbows:

You want to justify playing some BG's? Here's one: because they're fun.

If the sole reason you play WoW is to get gear, then you forgot something along the way bud.

Cheers!

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as probably alot have (or will say). This BG matchup won't do anything. EX: For the 19 bracket.. you can still get 2 cruel barbs and the defias set. Thats not a twink set for a rogue at that lvl. BUT its super good none the less. People find ways to go around everything. This will be no different. Except now.. you will have 1 or 2 twinks on one side and the other side wont have any.

This will also suck for higher lvl instances. Alot of people cant play their characters. So it will be like a noob bracket and a good gear bracket. By doing that its going to put people in the middle either with people with really good gear who know how to play. Or people with crappy gear who don't know how to play. Both would suck.

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@7

Dont' get me wrong man, I love playing WoW, and even AV can be a nice relaxing diversion for me. My issue is that I only have a very limited time to play every week, and if I want to stay even remotely competitive in arena, to some degree I have to get the most out of my time as possible.

There's nothing more I would like to do than play all the different BGs at my leisure but then my character would never advance. The point I was trying to get across is that I _do_ find the BGs extremely fun, AV less so, and I think anyone who PVPs on a regular basis would agree with me. What I am hoping is that gear matching system will provide me with enough incentive to play the BGs I like.

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/agree with Elbows. I worked my way to Exalted with AV on two characters, and it got real old (especially after they whacked the honor we get from HKs). I'd like some of the new PvP gear since I don't raid, but I'm not a masochist!

@Maedhras - I've pugged waaay too many BGs with my team in a mix of blues and purples and the other side wearing Tier X sets & running Vent. If you think that's fun, I think you're nuts :)

I hope the matching system works on gear AND the number joining as a group. Those of us who play primarily for PvP will be happier if there's more chance to avoid premade teams rolling pugs every night from 7-12 and around the clock on the weekends.

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I have to echo Elbow's woes myself. I have love killing other plays more than Mobs but the total joke that the BG's have become is annoying.

Ok I shouldn't say total joke, because every now and then you get in a late night string of WSG or AB wins with a group of people that queue up over and over and pwn but those are so rare nowadays that I just get annoyed.

How about make a BG queue for Non-BG-Douche-Bags where you actually have to use team work and strategy to WIN the bg, not just fuck around waiting until your loss? /end rant

In all seriousness heh


Ok as far as the matching system, I think it will also be a joke. Most of the time my wait fro BG's is frustratingly long and to make that be even longer to be more fair is lame.

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This is not a fix,it is a new broke. There is only one way to push twinks, and premies out, leveling. If a toon can stay at one level for life it will pawn all it competes with, to much time to twink. However, if every marker earned also earned xp, no one could rule and ruin any particular level or bracket of bg. To equalize gear is a silly idea, make the need to get new gear the driving factor. Also while were at it, why should one sides time in bg be more valuable than the other sides. Honor bonus for wins should go away.

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So they were thinking about changing the 41pt prot talent to something a warrior would use while solo'ing? Pardon me, but as a warrior that's had nothing but complaints about the class since day 1 (well, not really until about 50), this seems to be a boneheaded move to even consider a change like this.

"Let's make a 41pt talent in the tanking tree, have nothing to do with tanking at all!" That's like putting an uber fireball at the top of the mage's frost tree. Yes, prot warriors need more solo'able dps (I'm still Arms because I'm in the process of farming).

Threat generation is a joke considering a PoM/pyro mage, with some lucky crits, can put out 10k damage or more, and the level of player skills at 70 isn't uniform (as much as it was back at 60), so a lot of the dps classes enjoy frontloading as much as they can, as if they were solo'ing. I'd like to see a buff to warrior threat. It's a sad day when a scorch spamming mage can steal a mob from me after I have 5 sunders and a Revenge, all the while doing white dps and Heroic Strikes. Paladin tanking scales with +dmg, druid tanking scales with better weapons doing more damage. Warriors tanking scales...oh wait, it doesn't.

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#12 was one of the more incomprehensible posts I've read in a while.

Earning XP on BGs played means never having to level PvE at all. You can join, run in circles, wait for your team to win or lose, collect your token and your free XP. Eventually, you'll hit 70 without having done anything, and have uber loot to boot.

No honor bonus for wins equates to "why bother?" If there's no advantage to winning, I might as well /dance in the flag room and deliberately throw the game. No resistance means a shorter game, and faster honor (and XP, if we use your other brilliant idea).

(The above examples assume that I am an honor farmer. And, regardless of your intentions going into a BG, there *will* be honor farmers who will do the above.)

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Gear Matching, if it is Working As Intended(tm), would force all the twinks together, removing the gear advantage. As stated above, smaller populations in brackets will mean mismatches to varying degrees, but it should be at least a slight improvement.

I had read somewhere that the match would be made on all gear carried into the BG, so swapping gear once inside wouldn't work.

I do not believe they should just lump twinks with regular players if populations are low. If the twinks really want to BG, they should downrank their gear. Surely, as the awesome players they must be with all that practice, their skill will see them through to victory (yeah right :D ) This would encourage regular players to return to the BGs.

The only thing more they could do to make the BG playing field level would be to eliminate premades entirely, OR match premade group sizes when possible. PuG vs. premade on Vent is just about always going to lose. If premades were eliminated or forced to play other premades, you should typically be facing equal levels of organization as your own. And isn't it more fun to face a challenge, rather than steamroll or be steamrolled? No premades are the only reason AV works as well as it does. If they re-enabled premades for that... it just doesn't bear thinking about.

Case in point: after 2.0.1 came out and everyone headed to the BGs for their free PvP epix, 9 games out of 10 I was facing a premade. By far the most fun games were the rare ones when we were up against a PuG. Win or lose, those PuG games were awesome, because they amounted to more than vainly trying to hold one node in AB.

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@13, good druid tanking weapons add almost no damage so I do not understand how that would cause more threat.

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@15

http://www.wowwiki.com/Druids_as_Tank
http://www.wowinsider.com/paladin-tanking/

Both state that both are superior to warriors in single mob, multi mob, and mitigation, and just general tanking bad assery.

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@13

I don't see that changing devastate to work with DW actually invalidates it as a tanking method.

The problem as I see it is that it's a pretty crappy 41pt tanking talent to begin with. You're right in that warriors need better scaling threat generation abilities. At 65 I seem to be holding aggro just fine but I hear things aren't so good at 70. A full prot warrior should never have any problem holding aggro if playing properly.

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@16 I never said druids did not cause more single target threat then a warrior. The person I was responding to was saying "druid tanking scales with better weapons doing more damage" and that is just false.

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@14 what uber gear that is not available now? Maybe your new, pre-BC xp did come with bgs. Leveling xp not hardly but if you went in at level 19 you could not stay there for ever, eventually you had to move on. PvP gear (mostly) rolls on the tens, so ever time a toon got the next level of gear, it would be at the bottom of bracket. Do away with premies would be easy (probably) no group joins to bg. Other parts of the game influence twinks more than what they gain bg wise. Fix the chanting levels for all chants, not just some, same with gear add ons, and other professions.

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