I personally would find it to be a rather difficult job. It is a lot of work and the only rewards you can really get is a nice epic or a world first. Yes there's a feeling of pride and accomplishment when your guild does something great, especially if it's a world or server first; but is it all worth it?

Most of us are getting up in the years; have played these damn games since the 80s (70s for some). But that's back when games were easy. Simple pick up and play games that could be forgotten and didn't really require so much of our free time. The issue I think most guild leaders face is the ignorance of youth, or stupidity depending on your view. I'm sorry but I couldn't fathom dealing with half a guild being under the age of eighteen. There's definitely a reason why top-end guilds don't allow the young. But don't take that as a harp at the young, as the old are just as ignorant and stupid. I play with plenty of teenagers that are quite adept at their jobs within the WoW community and are mature enough to not be completely stupid on vent, but there are always those few.

To coordinate a raid is an even larger pain. All over the forums and here we've discussed the A and B team requirements that all guilds face due to the small raiding model. So you need the same reliable twenty-five people to be there, on time, on every raid till it gets done. Sure, you can have a no show or two the next night, but for the most part you NEED those same people because those are the people you've already hashed out the strategies with, who you know will get the job done. To have your top DPSers and your top healers not show up on a crucial day is an absolute hair pull.

All of that plus having a real life (is that possible as a guild leader?)...

Better you than I. I'll just take orders.

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Seems like running a guild would be a very handy way to test/better your business skills like the person mentioned in the article.

Running a guild is very much like a business, from vent service to managing DKP to designing tabards.

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I look at it this way, too much of the game feels like a job from grinding for mats to playing the AH for cash. Being a guild leader is just another level to add to the job feeling. Being in a guild is bad enough, I have not run across a decent guild on my server. They are either hardcore raiders or have the lifespan of a fly.

I don't envy anyone that is a guild leader but its their cross to bare.

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I had a GM quit because he couldn't "handle the drama", but after he quit (and took his GF with him), there wasn't any drama.
Looks like we all win.

I often thought "I could do this better, and with fewer conflicts of interest" but really agreed with him. Why on earth would you take your hobby (in this case WoW), and turn it into a full time job that doesn't pay a cent? That's just dumb. That being said, I fully support any Guild Master who does the job without abusing the power, or letting it go to his head.

My current GM actually set the GMOTD a week or so ago to "The person who actively seeks a position of power is the only person who should never been promoted to said position." and I completely agree with him.

peace out

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Thank you so much for providing this.
I am sure that it will be very helpful for many peoples.

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Its easier to sit in the back of the bus and shoot spitballs than it is to drive the bus. More fun too!

I sort of inherited a large casual raiding guild, about 170 accounts. It quickly became incredibly frustrating.I have managed several businesses, and have owned my own for about 7 years. The way things had become in that guild, there was no way to fix it without tearing it apart and starting over. Rather than do that and cause all the grief, I stuck it out a couple months and did the best I could to repair things. Finally I left, drained, exhausted. Left such a bad taste in my mouth I changed servers, too much weirdness being around there anymore.

Maybe 8 months later, the guild I was in basically split. Lo and Behold, I was once again a GM. But this has been different, quite a bit different. We started from scratch, so were able to not fall in to a lot of the traps that can really screw up any organization in the long term. We were able to communicate, and aloow people to have realistic expectations of the guild and the experience they would have. Not to say there is no drama, there is a bit. But running this guild is not the life sucking black pit of despair that the inherited guild was. It is often actually somewhat energizing.

So I think it really depends on being able to set things up correctly in the beginning, establish policies and procedures and make sure they are known and understood. But even more than that, I think with a good group of people in such a structure, a GM gets to be almost more of a cheerleader than anything else. I actually get to still play the game! And enjoy it even!

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Lets face it, running a guild is hard work. However, its juts as hard work to run an club. As the chariman of my local archery club and previously a secretary in my bowls (lets the jokes begin) and airsoft club, i know from experience, that the issues a guild leader faces are the same aa any committee member of a club faces. The sooner people realise that a guild is a WOW club, the better.

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As an ex-guildmaster, I can safely say that running a guild is a lot more time-consuming and stressing than a real job is.
Having to deal with

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As an ex-guildmaster, I can safely say that running a guild is a lot more time-consuming and stressing than a real job is.
Having to deal with a guild of ~60 people, trying to get 40 people to cooperate. Motivating them and trying to instill pride in our accomplishments is emotionally draining when you have a guild that is not "working with you".
Couple that with managing a guild bank, a forum, a website, dealing with internal conflicts between normal members, and between officers and trying to lead (and get people to contribute to) discussions on improving the guild and its raiding performance, and you spend more hours on guild management than you do on your full-time job.
In return, you get almost no appreciation (except for a few people), no rewards except the ones that normal members do as well, and zero understanding for when you finally burn out and say you can't continue to be guildleader any longer.

Personally, I'm not going to lead any guild unless it has a firmer, more stable base of players who understand what a guild is really about. (because those kinds of guilds really do not require much attention at all). Any other guild which requires ~30-40 hours a week of attention, I'd ask for more than what I currently get paid for my job.

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I was always thinking that running a guild was something rewarding- until I read this. So what is it that players do not understand about guilds that makes it so difficult to run one?

Reading this thread made me realize that running a guild is like running a company, and not a small one. 40 to 170 people is quite an organization which in real life is run by more than one person. Maybe that's the problem? We try to run organizations in WoW with one unpaid person which should after all enjoy it while in real-life this would take like 5 paid employees. Could the solution be to split the tasks?

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IMO the reason leading a guild is more difficult than managing a business is that people have the ability to just jump ship at any time. They don't have to worry about how to pay their bills/support their family if they quit. It's like leading a volunteer army in which the soldiers can leave at any point in time. Much easier to quit when you have the anonimity of the online world; which puts tons of stress on the guild leader.

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Running a guild can be alot like running a business or a club. It still can be fun and rewarding and/or it could be a pain. From my personal experience i played wow since the release. During that time i had the honor to play in a few guilds. When i was in those guilds i would take note of the things that worked and the things that did not, and modeled my guild after the good things i found in other guilds i took part of. One thing i noticed that many GM's had been overwhelmed by all the tasks that they had. Guild bank, recruiting, drama, loot, dkp, etc. Knowing too well that I was unable to spend the amount of time and how taxing those tasks were, i decided that i would find 6 close people either in real life or loyal members that have been in the guild for awhile and put them in charge of a task i felt that they would excel in. I also established rules and thought out as many different possible problems that i would have and addressed them up front. I then would hold votes on different topics that occurred that i didnt think up. That way members were able to feel that they were a part of the guild and its discussions. After about a year into this and the guild is still going strong with over 250 accounts. It really has ran itself and i havent had to do much except the rare issue now and then. So imo just like a business if its not well thought out and you dont take the time to think things through then it really could be a nightmare.

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I already relate to this question as I'm a full time stay at home mother and military wife. I have a 4, 5 & 6 yr old that I am with 24/7 because my husband is military and deployed 4-6 months at a time so no room for me to work outside the home, so I run my own business at home as well. Parenting is much like guild leading, as I have taken the challenges of a guild leader in several MMORPGs, including World of Warcraft. I do it because I like to encourage people, inspire, and make even the slightest bit of difference. I find in World of Warcraft alot of the younger generation has a rather rude or inconsiderate tone with those on the other side of the computer, but when I game with mykids, they are very polite. I find the kids in the game are like this because their parents don't get involved with what they are doing, therefore the parents cant NOT teach what is right or wrong in an online game (many don't think online games are 'real' to begin with) so if I can be the 'mother' to some players in the guild, then maybe I can make that difference in the way kids play MMORPGs. I also find guild leading great for making friends and friends with the RIGHT kind of people with similar interests to me. WOuld I do it if I got paid? Yes. Because I do it already in-game and out of game and I believe as a mother and a gamer, my difference in the life of anyone is worth something if it is good.

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As a GM, one of the things that I have found to be the most challenging is managing people who can't see each other, especially without vent or team speak. It can make for a lot of time spent trying to help players see eye to eye enough to keep everyone happy. What I have found to be really interesting though, is that when we've had bouts of trouble in the past it has always been because of people inviting their real life friends into the guild.

The best way out guild has found to deal with the issues that come up is to have GMs and officers who speak one on one with all the members on a regular basis, and to have guild meetings where everyone votes (via tell) on any changes or ideas put forward. We have a website with all of our rules, structure, qualifications, promotions, conflict resolution etc. policies so everyone knows what they're in for and there isn't favoritism. It took a lot of work at the beginning, and our guild meetings take longer to coordinate, but the end result is a core group of players that is happy and understood. Now when people come into the guild they know exactly what we're about and we can tell fairly quickly if we'll all get along long term. Knowing who our members are, what they're looking for from their play time, and what kind of events will lend to that has helped us infinitely.

I have a background in stage management, so I'm use to this kind of coordinating, but I wouldn't take pay for it...maybe credits against my WoW subscription and web hosting fees though?

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A few months ago I requested the opportunity to take over GM duties for my guild, which is soon to celebrate its 2nd year. The GM was absent, and the guild was basically in a state of confusion, with zero direction for current content (we had started BWL, then all of a sudden we stopped with no explanation) or for the Burning Crusade.

Once I was given the position of Guild Master I spent hours everyday filling the guild forums with posts on how to improve the guild, a guide for how we would tackle TBC, a new DKP policy, clearer application policies, etc. Really just making an ISO Procedure Manual for the guild, the closest thing in real life to compare my actions to.

I told the guild very publicly that I planned on running the guild like a business. There would be officers to serve as the Board of Directors, Class Leaders operating as department managers, and so on. Performances would be monitored using varied tools available to the guild, and overall we would take a more serious approach to our end game aspirations.

We were a guild that in it's first 3 weeks of MC had Domo down, but after that regressed week after week, to where it took us 5 months to down Rag, and that just wasn't acceptable. I took over GM because of this. I saw great potential in the people of my guild, and wanted to bring out the best in us all.

So would I take a full time paid position? Sure I would, at a salary of 6 figures a year, since I "manage" about 100 people, write policy, hold meetings, scout encounters, etc. Sounds like a job a VP of my company would hold, and they make about $200k a year not counting bonuses.

My company has actually taken an interest in this type of management at the behest of an IT staffer. I mentioned it to my boss, and he was very interested in knowing what I had done "management" wise with the guild. Definitely an interesting parallel to the real world. I probably spend 15+ hours a week at work attending to guild buisness, now that I have two employees that work under me to allow me a bit more free time, and I got those employees likely because of the experience with my guild.

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Tosshi, any positions open at your job? hah
If your boss is truly open to such ideas, you're in a fine position. If I even mentioned gaming at my job, I'd probably be fired on the spot, if not sent to an institution.

My most serious issues with being a guild leader have mostly been addressed here by those commenting. Specifically, no "reward" or return on investment. And, yeah, if you're trying to run anything remotely serious in a guild, you're investing a lot of time and energy. My guild has a long-running forum, where, including all that I've purged, I've made around 3000 posts in the past year or two. And I'm kinda long-winded. I spend a lot of time trying to manage, manage, manage. I think it's a toil, but a skill, as well.

The second main issue is that, although guild leaders put a tremendous strain on themselves to manage guilds, the individual members of the guild rarely see or recognize the effort, and almost never take the moment or two necessary to give a bit of positive feedback, let alone a modicum of respect, to their guild leaders. They might not be able to see things from where I sit, but it's as if I'm trying to manage a room full of 2-year-olds whose only interest is "me, me, me." Indeed, there are exceptions, and those exceptions tend naturally to fall into officer positions and become very helpful. However, officers are just like guild leaders with respect to no ROI (return on investment) burnout.

There are so many other issues, I could (and probably should) write a whole new full article. However, I'll touch on one of the more prominent ones. Retention. As a commenter indicated, without incentives, there's no way we can keep guild members from running off to join other guilds. And they do, quite often, when things aren't going perfectly well for them in a guild. This is something I've had to deal with extensively, and it's very stressful. I can't ethically tell someone who fills an important role that they'll get priority over items if they stay, because I would be abusing those who stay of their own accord. At the same time, if I don't retain certain players (who play important roles in raids and whatnot), then the guild cannot accomplish its goals. If the guild isn't accomplishing its goals, I lose more players (quite a few of whom exist in the guild exclusively for the purpose of accomplishing those particular goals).

Would being paid full time make any difference? Well, it could. I would then have a bit more potential influence. Example: Say I did get paid $100,000 per year, salaried, for running a WoW guild (let's ignore the logistics of who is paying), and my job is basically to run a successful WoW raid guild with reasonable goals and expectations. One of the first things I would do is search for highly qualified officers, who would devote much of their time and effort to assist the guild. How would I motivate these people to do so? I would offer to pay their monthly subscription costs. That's not a tremendous amount of money (assuming I only acquire about 4-5 high-quality officers), but I suddenly have leverage, and those officers suddenly have incentive to stay with the guild and do a good job.

Without such incentives, there's merely a weighing of sentimentality and practicality that is done by all members, including officers and the guild leader. Do I stay with a guild, even though it's not going the direction I like, because I have an emotional connection to it or the players in it? Or will I move on because the "drama" is excessive, or because if I stay in this guild, I'll never get to Tempest Keep or some other goal? I think that if players keep in mind that their guild leaders are always, somewhere in the back of their minds, asking those very questions, they might give a bit more deference, a bit more respect, and, in return, might obtain a bit of a better guild.

[Thanks for the reference, btw!]

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The biggest issue for me personally, is the lack of respect, or maybe understanding, of what a GM deals with on a daily basis. My officers get their fair share of complaints, but nothing in comparison to the PMs, whispers, smartass comments, etc. that I get on a daily basis. Even sometimes with the officers that give me a bit of hell I have to remember they don't see it from my angle, and I have to take a breath.

The second biggest issue is taking time off. And by time off I mean even a single evening. I typically do not play Monday and Tuesday. Those are my busiest work days, and after marathon gaming on weekends I like to wind down. If I log on for just a bit to maybe check auctions, or just say hi and see how everyone is, but don't stay online for a run of some sort, I get pestered for it. I'll get on messenger on my laptop, and surf the web (typically on my "off nights" I am researching encounters) while watching tv. My messenger turns into guild central where people want me to come on runs, log in, or want to know if I quit, because I wasn't online.

And this isn't new. I have used Monday/Tuesday as my WoW weekend for months, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people never notice it, and think because I am GM I must be online to arrange groups for them, or go run them through something.

I guess the reason you do it is because you feel you can bring something new to the guild, and see content that no one else in the guild could take lead you to.

And sorry Psaye, no positions. Just filled my last opening with another WoW player!

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Well as a Guild Leader it’s not easy and can be frustrating at times. Sometimes I log on and BAM spammed with text. Hey can we do this, hey he said she said or this person quit for no reason or no one listens to this. WoW. That’s how it was at the beginning but the problem doesn’t just come from within the Guild in its organization but people who tend to join then stay quiet or not participate. I am friends with several GM's to keep tabs on certain banned players we don’t need tarnishing our rep on the server... I have a lot of dedicated GOOD players and officers. They donate Money to my pay pal for my website and vent etc. I make being in my Guild a fun experience and allow players to obtain something for there $15 a months worth.
I hold a context ever month. Top Guildie that donates from a list of items I have listed wins cash prizes to Star Bucks, 2 months free WoW card, and Best Buy turn in etc. One it motivates my Players to play and do their thing and earn Points for real life Cash Prizes.
I think the Hard core Problem are the underage players not all but a good portion that is like a baby, give me, give me no dedication just along for the ride or that is a Guild hopper. I think everyone has come across them. I have a good raiding Guild I have my degree in Engineering and just 2 Combat tours over seas yes I am in he U.S. Army. Just got back from Iraq and Blizzard sent over a comp game to try it out over there and we Band of Brothers here got addicted ever since!!!
O' I am gona go off topic for a sec but being in the Military and being in for 11 years I have noticed in the game to many Guild hoppers and they piss me off. BUT "GUILD CONTRACTS" I have stated this in several posts before. It’s an ideal solution to teach responsibilities to people.
Here’s an idea. If you get invited you either can join for 3 to 6 months contract. Once in the Guild you are saved like an instances. They can pug 5 man instances but anything that’s 10+ must be Guild related!!! Even if a Guildie has not been to that instance he cannot be puged by another Guild.
Ok this teaches several things.
1. Responsibility towards the Guild and true dedication. Example: Dam I can do instances I don’t know this Guild much I "MUST inform my self to know them better" Inform your pushing them to do there own research and not always having officers to enforce themselves on the Guild as mush but allowing them to come to you for once.
2.If the Guildie gets out of hand in Guild control 2 must be appointed with the power to remove in case your not there, officers and GM can remove or break contracts. GM or officers can only remove that person. If they begin to tarnish your reputation then you can request to global mute that person for 2hrs to cool him off and being able to do so again ever 24hr period.
I have noticed too many Guilds. I think Blizzard should start charging real money to purchase the right of having a Guild like them 30 prepaid cards. 1 set price every year. I think it’s a good way to have Guild control over servers... perhaps $100 for this Guild card creator.

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I had a real life "friendship" destroyed by running a guild when my "friend" kicked my wife from the guild one night I wasn't online because another guild member was afraid he might offend her with racial slurs. I didn't find out any of it til the next day when my wife and I got online to play and she asked why she couldn't access the guild tab of the character panel. It's further compounded by the fact I work with my so called friend. So my wife and I rerolled and have been happily playing since, the sad thing is it all could have been avoided if he had called and talked to me before he decided to play god and start booting people.

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Hoo boy. Don't I wish.

I fell into a raiding group that was able to clear BWL completely and AQ40 up to and including the Twin Emperors.

During a short period of time, I was leading this group as my raid leader underwent a move. I had always looked at it and thought, "Man, this is easy."

Oh, how wrong I was.

I was unemployed at the time, so I was able to sink the time needed into it. But I couldn't help but think that there had to be some way to parlay the management that I did (and still do) into some kind of work experience. If I could get 40+ disparate personalities to work together and accomplish something like that, then I could do much more. I don't think that many other people have that kind of experience, and it's certainly helped me with my new job.

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