large groups of mobs != fun. Especially with classes who don't have good CC

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And I love it! You can tell who in your guild really knows how to play and who has been faking it. What I really, love, though, is the challenge. Guild members i never ran before have become regular group members because of a 5 hour Shadow Labs run where we learned the bosses as we went. It's refreshing. Only downside is it makes PUGS a bigger gamble. Who knows if your pug tank can hold aggro? Is your priest shadow spec and didn't tell you until your second wipe? Love it!

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I hate the new end-game, and I think my post to General just before the one you linked to may have been this person's inspiration.

It's simply too hard for my skill level. I play this game because it is easy and has a low barrier to entry...I'm just not very good. I could handle the Baron and Drakk, but this is just too much for me.

It's a shame, but I'll be ending my subscription this month because of it. Fun while it lasted. Hopefuly I'll convince everyone in my guild to jump ship to Warhammer when it comes out.

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It's nice, but is it really harder than before? When I was still wearing mid-50s greens, Strat UD and Scholo were hard too. Admittedly my "endgame" experience in TBC so far is one run each of Sethekk Halls, Durnholde (if those two count), Shadow Lab, and Steamvault.

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It used to be like this in the old-endgame as well. There was a time when doing Scholomance 5 man was a impressive feat, and Stratholm 5 man even more so.

Back then even Strat and Scholo was a 10 man raid instance that you went to for Loot, doing quests in them was a joke, as you needed a propper group, the kind you needed for a 45min run at the end, and PuGs just did not cut it.

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I absolutely am ADORING this end-game...and I agree with #2 on seeing who knows how to play and who has been faking it. Ends up that MOST of my guild has been faking it....LOL. But luckily there is a good group of us that are slowly but surely working out the kinks. It's been fantastic so far. I can't wait to see more!

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Hardest non-heroic 5 man..... Arcatraz... First time I did it we cleared it with only 1 wipe.... I havnt come even close ever since.... very frustrating... And the new name for Shadow Labs is Satans Asshole... But those are just my thoughts

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I love the new end-game stuff. I got my first 60 like 3 weeks before the expansion and I had never gotten the chance to play anything further than Live Strat, I haven't even done a scholo/DM/UD Strat Run.

I always pictured end game as being out of reach since I was not in a big guild and we just didnt have the numbers. I did alot of PVP since I did not have the chance to get into end game and learned how to play my class well (im a mage btw) and when BC came out it just kinda cliked and now i'm enjoying learning new all the new instances and helping my late bloomer guildies progress. A lot of us just got keyed for Karazhan and I hoping to get into Karazahn this weekend.

Also agree that BC is weeding out the crappy from the underestimated/talented. The cream always rises :D

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I'm sad, actually. I always play with my girlfriend, and while she tries, there are several things that she either refuses to do (move with left hand while mousing with right) or is really bad at (tanking) that I'm afraid we really aren't going to progress very far.

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PUG's are for group quests in Outlands, not for instances. I think that the more end game instances (Shadow Lab especially) are hard on the hybrid/tweener classes tho.

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@Rich

Im not a big far of SL "if" you don't have the right group. I haven't run labs for a week, but a group of us did it in like 1 1/2 hours, total caster dps pwnage, we had 2 fire mages, lock, shadow priest, and a feral Druid. We just blasted through that place, preist didnt even pop out of shadow, Vamp Em was enough. If you have the means, I highly recomend it :p

This might change after the druid nurf but until then you can blast away and those druids wont lose aggro.

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#7 Good name for shadow labs.. if it weren't for the room before blackheart it wouldn't be nearly as bad. But they (blizzard) pretty much make the group for you, heaven forbid you take some non cc group in there lol the 6 pulls aren't even the bad part, the 5 pulls with 2 shadow priests suck horribly if you don't have cc.. we tried and all knew how to play our classes to the spell with Pally/Priest/2x Hunters/Warrior.. you'd think enough healing? but the cultists on the pally pretty much stops them from healing.. kicks and the like. Traps aren't reliable enough and none of that stopped the priests from flaying the face off of people AFTER their shadow pain lol they are very smart.

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@Jchc
It definitely will change after the next patch. The druid won't be able to hold aggro or DPS near as well and the shadow priests ability to heal without leaving shadow form also took a big hit.

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I didn't realize how much trouble people were having with endgame instances. I love the new content and such, but to me it just seems a tad more difficult with more unique encounters...but nothing impossible. It's also a bit more difficult when trying to do these instances when still geared in your half green/blue quest gear.

Now I belong to a very intense PvP guild, so PvE isn't really our thing. But what I AM finding (and I've had this feeling for a while) is that as a PvP guild will have an easier time adapting to these new instances. Typically (not always) I've found that PvPers are much more capable of managing several targets at once, being able to adapt on the fly, and just be much more flexible when it comes to a bad pull, or something going wrong.

Overall, I think this is doing EVERYONE some good. Now everyone is FORCED to learn their class and really explore the extent of their capability. No longer can you go through an instance and just spam one button, you have to be a constantly adjusting, changed, and adapting player.

Again, I love it.

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I'm feral cat, and... i tank a lot, 'couse ppl still don't get that ferals do have a lot of useful stuff to offer. But still, the topic is about dungeons.
I'll give an example if me and my mates (all of 'em in different guilds) know our class. We pulled out Shadow Labs. We - me tanking with cat gear(i really don't have room for tanking items AND don't want to tank at all), another druid cat tank, a lock, a shadow priest and a balance druid healer... Well we did get wiped, 1 time, by murmur couse of me runing backwards while he casted aoe (stupid really...). But no matter, no CC at all in Shadow Labs, 3 druids - none speced for what they did, a lock and a shadow priest. 2 tanks, 2 aoe and a crappy healer :]
I think we did extremely good for a group of 'dont-do-dungeons-this-way'. Meaning - i think we know our classes and I'm really proud to know these guys and always enjoy playing with them.
Then there was that other thing. I tried Black Morass just tonight. Again tanking ofc, who needs cats? A mage, a shadow priest, a dps war and a hunter (talk about PUGs). We did to 3rd wave and got wiped 'couse know one knew what to do at the dungeon :] Then we tried again, this time 5th wave wipe. It was obvious to me we're not going anywhere do to dps missing. None the less, i think i got the right strat. Typing my strat to the ppl was a complete waste. They were discussing AOE and if hunter should dps (hunter dpsing..... well... we should try it). I typed the strat twice and after being ignored the second time i said 'stfu idiots and listen to me'. The whole group disbanded and regrouped without me searching for a better tank...

OMFJC

TANK is there problem? How stupid can they be, I mean really...
So yes, obviously knowing ur class is a MUST even in the not so end game dungeons.

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I like the idea of harder 5 mans, for my personal taste. I feel for those who do not have guilds to help move them along. Generally, a good guild can assist slower players with becoming a little better (or a lot better), but everyone has their own pace. I just prefer not to have to PUG with them. I was in one group with a hunter that really sucked at pulls (timing). He was up front with us, and we were able to compensate without wiping. Fortunately, he could fight pretty darn good (Darn, I just gave a hunter a compliment).

As far as the instances go, most people are still too new to the instances to say that they are too difficult. Some people really enjoy specific instances and do nothing but run them constantly. They will invariably become experts. Many of the members of my guild LOVE Shadow Labs. I don't know if they ever wipe in there anymore. I think more people/guilds will end up doing the same. So, enjoy the road rash on the trip. You'll eventually make it.

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I think a lot of you are forgetting how hard the old 5 man dungeons were 2 years ago.

Scholo and Strat had to get a huge makeover before they were like they are now. I remember going into Scholo for 6 hours over two nights just to clear it (1 day do jandice and get the key from rattlegore, next day finish up).

No, it wasn't because we were noobs. We were good friends playing together with PVE specs and sometimes using ventrilo. What was the problem then? Well, they were just much harder. Most of the mobs did much more damage, and the groups were so close together and pure chance could ruin your run. The Rattlegore room was completely changed, as were the mini-bosses.

Completing Scholo that first time in 5 man was my first great achievement in the game. I was sad when it got nerfed, because it means that people could put in less dedication and still get the same rewards. I definitely like the scaling of heroic dungeons because it mirrors the same kind of difficulty.

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@Jchc

Ohh its not that Shadow Labs is that hard or my guild isnt able to get through it... Its that everytime Im in there something happens and it turns into a giant headache and makes me hate WoW....

eg. The first time we went through it we made it to Murmur and before our first try we all get kicked cause of a "World Server Crash" sure enough we all logged back in to find that the instance has reset.... i almost quit the game forever....

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I think the new instances are all really fun. I'm lucky though in that my guildies are all a group of tight knit friends who know (most of the time lol) how to not nub it up. We have a great time learning the new encounters and I haven't had this much fun in ages with this game. There are a few we've had trouble with, but with some thinking and concentration, we beat the encounters. It's been such a breath of fresh air after the boredom that was the pvp grind before the expansion came out.

I am loving karazhan as well. We aren't the most fast paced, hardcore guild by far, but we downed 4 bosses in our first three days there (of only 3 hours a night), which I think is a testament to our teamwork. So freakin' fun....except for the horrible skeletal ushers on 30 min timers. Eff you skeletal ushers!

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Honestly I was a little under-whelmed by the complexity of the new instances at first. I was tanking pretty much non-stop and when we'd get to a boss I hadn't done I'd ask "strat?" And the majority of the answers were "tank and spank". Now that makes my job simple, but it seemed a little weak. Then I did Botanica and Steamvault for the first time and I'm much more whelmed. There are some tricks in the pre-70 instances, but they aren't "complex" (not saying they aren't hard, but the strats are pretty straight forward).

This may be planned by blizz as a sort of learning curve. That is, they aren't aimed at people who've been raiding for a year, but rather for the people just hitting 60 or with only experience with the old 60 5-mans. For them I would think the bigger issue than the bosses would be the raw number of mobs in a trash pull. Now that's nasty.

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