Paul's got to eat!!

I love that you picked my name for this, Elizabeth, because that's exactly the issue I'll be having. I'm not really sure what my guild's take on this is going to be yet.

In a DKP setting, it should be a matter of personal choice, with a healthy amount of peer pressure.

I think the best solution is that paladins should be given the opportunity to collect and wear 2 sets of top-tier gear. That way I can have my holy gear of flash of lighting, and my retribution gear of sealjudging and swap them out as an encounter requires.

What I *really* think this will lead to is that hybrids will get a raid slot based on their function, rather than their class name.

Melee dps: DPS warriors, rogues, feral druids, retnoobs
Tanks: Bear druids, warriors, protadins
Healers: leafy druids, priests, healadins

So rather than saying "we're taking 3 pallies", you'd say "we need 3 healers, 3 tanks, and 3 dps'ers."

In this case, Paul the Healadin should take the holy gear if he's a raiding healer, or talk to his class/role leader about changing what he does for the guild.

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It sounds a lot like somebody telling me how to play. Where's the fun in that?

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In the end I pay for the subscription and so I will make the final decisions for my characters. Until a guild pays for my sub they can not tell me what to spec and what to wear. Granted if I want to be in the guild and advance the guild I will make decisions that will benefit them but in the end it is still MY decision. Luckly I am a hunter and don't face this problem. Now it is also a guild's decision to not take the ret spec'ed pally but they cannot tell you what to wear or what to spec.

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- First the cow died.
- Someone rezed the cow and skewered the poor thing.
- Someone else rezed the cow and lopped its head off.
- After rezing the cow, yet again, some craftily imploded the bovine.
- Slopping together the pieces, the cow was rezed again. This time the community pitched it through a grinder.
- Scrapping together the shaving the cow was rezed. What are you guys going to do to the poor guy this time?

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I think that, honestly, if you are a part of a raid-heavy guild or other alliance that raids regularly, you should be acting (and therefore choosing the Tier sets) in the interest of the guild. If the group raids, but isn't taking it extremely seriously, or if you're an infrequent raider in the guild, the player can generally choose how he wants his Tier to build.

Raid-heavy guilds and alliances depend heavily on everyone taking an assigned role and doing it to the best of their ability. These groups are desgined to remove the individual agendas to an extent in order for teh group as a whole to achieve things quicker or for bragging rights. In this spirit, when you become a heavy raider with a group of dedicated people, you owe the other members to fufill your specified role first, and your personal wants later.

However, I'd think that if you're a second-string raid guy, only because you really don't want to raid 5 out of the 7 days of the week or some such schedule, you are free to pursue a Tier 4 & 5 set of your choice, since you are not trying to contribute to a greater group most of the time.

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Paul has every right to go get his DPS Tier 5 stuff.

Likewise, after seeing that Paul got DPS gear, the guild has every right to boot his ass back to the warmup bench when it comes to raids.

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Everyone has a role to play in raids, and they're generally in the guild to fufill that role. If you aren't going to do your job the best you can (which sometimes means taking one for the team and getting the healing gear) then your spot in the raid is going to go to someone that will. I'm a druid CL, and I love my balance and feral gear just as much as everyone, but I'm not our guild's feral druid, so I'll be taking the healing set when the time comes.

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@6

you are exactly right. paul spent his dkp because he earned it. but also, paul wont get to much dkp anymore if he didnt chose what was needed for the next raid.

i can see it now... we need dps... paul the dps ret noob says "ill go".. paul is ignored and the guild looks to another

my question is, why did they set it up like this? seems to me like you would want the gear WHEN it drops, to actually help in that instance. unless these instances are only going to drop the marks at the very last boss (havent read up on it yet).

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As a Raid Leader I would prefer that if an item is given to a healing specced individual that it be used for healing. However, I have been around long enough to know this won't always be the case and that it isn't that cut and dry.

This isn't a new issue with Hybrids though. Before TBC, Blizzard forced them into healing by making their sets basically healing sets. Then offering additional offspec items to compensate the offspec classes. IMO this system sucked. Instead of hybrids turning a token in for DPS gear over healing they were forced to spec healing and then changed their spec behind your back. This situation sucked for everybody.

So now we finally have tokens and spec specific gear for classes. Thank goodness. However, this creates an issue with Hybrids in that they still have a responsibility to the raid. My view is that your gear is a result of your $15 a month and the efforts of 24 or 39 other folks who also pay $15 a month. So saying I pay it, I decide, is not entirely fair to your fellow raiders. It also not fair for 24 people to tell you how to play.

So a compromise is needed. I am not sure how we will handle this, so the rest of this are my jumbled thoughts on the process. Considering each set is only 5 pieces and there are only 25 people on raids, I see no problem running a zone on farm longer than normal to get people their offspec gear. Sort of a karma thing. You took healing stuff to help your fellow raider, we keep running the Zone so you get your DPS stuff too. Making that happen is the real challenge, since some classes only have one set. (too bad for them really, Hybrids are going to be the most fun to play with all their multiple roles.)

So in essense I see this as being all about a give and take between the guild and the individual. I would like for both sides to see that raiding is a cooperative effort and make the necessary sacrifices and commitments to see it through. I see making that happen as my job as a raid leader. Selfish people always make it harder though.

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Paul the Paladin is a hybrid class. He can and should be allowed to choose his roles in the guild so as long as he goes forward with his plan 100%.

If you want to be a DPSadin, go at it 100%. If you want to be a Healadin, 100%. Shadow Priest? Holy Priest? Feral Druid? Resto Druid? Hope this makes sense.

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Okay, Paul the pally is a healer in the raid. He heals you. You live. With out him you die! I have real life friends that have made healers and its honestly a whole other side of the game. For some its a very exciting job to heal a raid. For others its boring and no one really cares about your amazing 5k crit heals, big deal, you cant heal an alliance to death can you? Now, Im speaking from a warlocks perspective and i love seeing those 3500+ soulfire crits and will probably never reroll healer to heal a raid. as far as Paul the Pally, if he likes to heal thats great but he should be able to get the DPS stuff too. After all hes doing you a favor by keeping you alive i think he earns his DPS gear if he stays healer for a while.

Which brings me to my theory: Although it takes a bit of organization and compromise (not to mention time) but if you really have this problem set up a healer rotation (which will include all classes that can heal or DPS). For x amount of time the healer stays a healer. Then if he wants to DPS then he can get his gear by swapping with a DPS pally while the DPS pally switches to Heal. However, you will always step on ppls toes with this b.c you are telling ppl what spot to play and they should get to choose that themselve. After all they are paying $15/month.

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At any point did Paul agree that it would be best if he used his token to get healing gear or did he beg and plea for his guild to help him so he could be a better healer? As far as I am concerned if Paul never pledged to use his new token, or whatever, to get healing gear etc. for the benefit of the guild then his guild has no right to believe that he will use get the gear for what they expect. Sure, maybe they helped him get it but that doesn't mean they can tell him how to use it. The formulas for optimial group no longer apply so if Paul wants to get blahblahblah gear and use it for random tanking or soloing then that's his business.

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@1 The day a retadin/feral druid/fury warrior becomes dps over a rogue is the day I quit playing the game. If I can't out dps all of the listed classes with my rogue I might as well go play "Hello Kitty Island Adventure" because frankly it is all a rogue is good for in the raid environment.

@2 You are 100% right. It's his choice what he does with the token and which gear he chooses, it is also the choice of the group if he is allowed to return for the next run. In this case if he chooses to be a selfish prick, take an item that only helps him when soloing and costs the group a piece of gear that helps the group as a whole I believe it is the groups choice to let him return or not.


Look, each group will be different but there are a few underlying things that have to be accepted. People don't just raid, they play this game the other 6 nights a week and sooner or later that gear will get used. People sacrifice their time to help the group, and as such anyone who gains from that should be willing to take the item that helps the group as a whole the most.

Yep, I just argued both sides. In the end each player has to make a decision and the raid then has to react.

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As a guild leader that uses officer loot, I've dealt with this situation MANY times over pre-TBC.

There are those hardcore dedicated players that show up 100% of the time and have done the job over and over, then decide they need a change of pace -- those are the people who can get dibs on the DPS gear. Granted, they will have to continue raiding in order to obtain non-set healing/tanking gear, but the point is you always reward your longest and most dedicated members.

When the time comes to make a choice between a new guy who is tagging along for the gear ride or a long term member wanting to create a PVP set, there is really no second thoughts on where that gear will go.

I'm using the new system to weed out those that don't know how to play the game or have just been able to be carried by the rest of the team.

Also, you're right other people shouldn't tell you how to play your game and spend you $15, but don't tell your guild leader how to run his/her guild. Go PVP grind if you're in it for the DPS gear, it'll benefit everyone -- and with the smaller raid groups, guilds don't need to downsize, just have the DPS people go and get their gear with a guild PVP team.

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In the case you described he obviously plays a vital role in the group. HOWEVER i would lean more to letting him have his DPS gear because his healing was obviously good enough to help out again without the new gear.

I know when its my time (i'm a druid) ill be getting both feral and healer sets. Healer first because i'm healer specced.

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The day a pally gets tanking gear over a warrior in my guild is the day i will quit warcraft forever...

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If a raider makes any decision with items acquired by the labor of his fellow raiders anywhere near as selfish as the one described above, I should hope the guild leader has enough sense to bypass all drama and remove the raider from the guild immediately. It would be a huge waste of 24 peoples' time to give a healing pally DPS gear that required a difficult boss kill to attain.

Furthermore, if Paul wants to do DPS, he can switch to a new guild, or collect other gear besides the best gear this guild is currently able to get. Nobody should be telling Paul what to do -- Paul should have enough sense to not waste his guild members' time.

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This strikes me as a silly question. Guilds that tend to be more hardcore and focused on quick progression will require certain gear just as they'd require certain specs; guilds that are more laid back will give people the same freedom they always have. Both can be successful for their own purposes, and both can have completely happy members.

The only recommendation I'd make to GMs and MLs is to let your guild know RIGHT NOW how you intend to run things. Or, even better, ask them how they would like it run.

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@15: The argument that he was good enough to heal for an encounter doens't scale. Guilds/raids collect gear at one level so that you're capable of attempting the next level up. So yes, he could heal that encounter again successfully. But at some point, dps-pally Paul's gear is going to cripple the raid and they're going to hit a capability ceiling because he just doesn't bring that 5-10% extra juice that the better gear would give him. While he should have been collecting gear that let him excel at his role (whatever he chooses), he was spending it on stuff that instead helped him somewhere else. And like everyone else says, the guild/raid will find someone else who will help the raid.

I imagine that my guild will go in raid spec priority, then offspec roles once raid roles are filled. But likely a holy priest won't be rolling/spending on their dps Raid Set 4 while a protection warrior is working on his protection spec.

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I don't get this raiding for the sake of raiding... you raid essentially for loot. Yet the only loot you can take is that which will help you.... raid?

People say hes selfish for taking the dps gear, but really if Paul is always taking the healing gear and doesn't like to heal when does he get anything at all from it? Whats the point?

Can anyone else not see how its a viscious cycle? Sure its easy for the rogue or mage to tell the pally to take healing gear.. but thats because they don't have to make such choices. They can mostly grab gear to be offensive.

I guarantee you that if there was some strange off-spec of rogue that somehow benefitted the Raid greatly, but costed dps they would be singing a different tune when it comes to making the hybrid classes take healing gear or else!

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