You shoulda been there on my ill-fated run through Wailing Caverns with a 7-year-old cloth-wearing shaman!

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I'm just going to throw this out there...I've played in online games of one sort or another for years...here's what I've experienced.

1) The majority of incidents of pissy behavior, dropping out/not showing up, bragging about uber-leetness, etc...are perpatrated by "adults" aged 18-25 (btw, I'm 25...I managed not to do any of these things from age 13 up). Many times age can't be confirmed - so I may be wrong...but of the confirmed incidents I've experienced, this statement fits.
2) Most kids still living at home with mom/dad or going to school actually let you know that...i.e. I have to go to dinner, or I have school tomorrow, or I have a time limit on when I can play WoW...that's ten-fold better than the adults who just bail without any reason at all.
3) I have known many kids much more mature than adults...in an IRC Chat RPG game I play - we had a 13 year old running a group of 14 people (all older than him) who was amazing at what he did. At the same time there was a 43 year old running a group of 14 people who was a complete ass and had no clue what he was doing.
4) Age != Maturity, and it never will. Any discussion of maturity that ends with an age-based solution will fail to solve the problem. With a game as popular and accesible as WoW - you just can't weed out the stupid people.

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/agree with Sylythn.

I have found that in general, there seems to be little correlation between age and maturity on the internet. Everything you said is quite true.

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Don't the younger kids peter out towards the higher levels?

There's also an assload of annoying people in the lower levels, of all ages. It's almost like they know it's not their main character so they can be idiots just for fun.

In my experiences, the vast majority of people who are over fake leeters are teenagers. There's something about anonymity on the internet that empowers people, turning introverts into extroverts, and extroverts into total dills. Sort of like social steroids.

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"There's something about anonymity on the internet that empowers people, turning introverts into extroverts, and extroverts into total dills. Sort of like social steroids."

That's a darn good way of putting it...I've never heard it mentioned like that.

"There's also an assload of annoying people in the lower levels, of all ages."

Maybe this is the crux of it...maybe it's "Low Levels" that breed immaturity. If you consider the mature players you know around you - they level through the low areas pretty steadily...either because they know what they're doing, can handle the characters, or ask nicely and obtain help. The immature ones are more likely to stay lower longer...begging for gold instead of earning it, expecting handouts instead of questing, and annoying potential helpers.

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There is only one thing worse than noobs who can't play the game, people whining about it.

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Profound, Simon. Quite profound. :

Honestly, I can say that I agree with too many parties here to make a side's case. I do, however, attest that while I know a fair bit of 18+ immature people, I can't honestly say that many of them would let the following slip out of their keyboard: "wut? f*ck u dood". Now, forgive me for stereo-typing when I assume that the inability to spell such words as "dude" (or to use them, for that matter) or "what" that poorly.

On the other hand, I have seen my fair share of 18+ gamers simply disappear when it suits them, regardless of what is going on.

I guess my only opinion strong enough to stand by is the fact that I agree completely with Sylythn in #8. Not every newb is a jackass, but most jackasses are certainly noobs. ;Þ

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Well, I found that offensive. I'm 15, and I often find myself leading groups as from what I can figure alot of 18+ people lack the ability to lead, or for that matter think logically. Whatever, obviously people of 18+ are naturally more talented at social skills or something >.>

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This article is offensive to kids who are serious about the game. My son, 12, is one of the better players I've ever had the pleasure of playing wow with - biased? Sure, but it's still true.

Whether it's about a game, or about the workplace or anywhere else for that matter, discriminating because of someone's age is stupid. You lost a daily reader by allowing this offensive article to be published.

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I'm one of the 'kids' that plays World of Warcraft and is 15. Unlike almost all of the people on my server (and I play Horde, too), I use punctuation, spelling, and grammar correctly -- or at least to the best of my ability (I haven't pissed off any grammar nazis yet).

But anyway, on to the meat: Post #11, RE the 'offensiveness' of this article...

Is it really 'discriminating' against someones age when substantial amounts of evidence (anecdotal, but still) agrees with it? This reminds me of an episode of 'A Current Affair' I watched which was badmouthing a man saying that the average black guy had a lower IQ than the average white guy (which subsequently had a lower IQ than the average asian guy) -- is it really discriminating when it is true?

Certainly shows a level of maturity anyway, when one refuses to read a publication because a single article is deemed 'offensive' (although, I suppose this would be ok if it was the first article posted :P).

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Well, I see that a lot different. Each Kid is different developed at a certain age.

My Son, 13, plays WoW, and is a tank now in our MC raid.

My daughter, 10, plays WoW but never reaches beyond level 26. Shes collecting animals and loves it. She also has seen ALL territories of WoW at level 26. People take her to cool locations for her to awe about. She loves exploring.

On the other side of things I am divorced. WoW every evening with my kids is the only chance to experience my family, go venturing. Phone isnt the same thing. WoW is connecting us in a good way. I love that I can see my kids evenings if I want to, even if its just an hour or two. With teamspeak and wow we have a deeper relationship than I would have being the usual "every two weekends dad".

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As another CM (or maybe it was Neth) posted the last time an 18+ realm was requested; not only is there literally *no way* to determine someone's real age over the internet (which is interesting to me, because all the people complaining about young kids claim to be able to do so just by reading their chatlog), but age isn't even strongly correlated with maturity anymore.
I'm just glad they give me an ignore list... :)

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To the parents (especially #13):

I'm an every-other-weekend dad myself, and I can honestly say that if my kiddos were a bit older, I would be promoting the same daily events. On that note, I know that #13 did not speak negatively to the article; only differed in opinion. I can, however, draw a very thick line between what Mike said, and situations of the parents posting here. Your children have apparently been guided and molded to be able to be keyboard socialites. I don't think Mike (or any other kid-negative poster here) was aiming this article or thoughts to your children, but more to the players that snivlem was talking about in #6.

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Dude, don't even complain about kids until you've played alliance. That side attracts more kids than a broken down ice cream truck on a hot summer day.

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I don't get why people get so bothered by noobs. If they're a noob and they annoy you, you can just ignore them. My son and at least 2 of his friends play wow (9yr olds) and I always worry about him doing something noob just because I'm afraid that some "adult" is gonna get pissed at him and cuss him out. If you are an adult and a kid does something noob (or anybody for that matter) you have 2 choices: 1 leave/ignore them or 2 help them not be noobs. Why would you do anything else?

What's the worse thing that a noob can do to you? Maybe this should be a breakfast topic...

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To #17. Normally noobs/kids do not bother me. The problem comes when you play in an instance/dungeon, or epic quest, or PvP battle that is important to *you*, and the kids don't really know what they are doing an end up wiping your group over and over. Lots of work has to be put in by others to make up for the slack and sometimes it just isn't enough and your whole gameplay time is "wasted" by nothing having gotten done. That’s when people get pissed. I personally would never cuss someone out, or give them much of a hard time. I would however give them a little constructive criticism if I thought it might be helpful.

No one likes to have their playtime wasted, especially when it can sometimes take *hours* to put a group together

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I have a daughter who has been wanting to play for a while now, after watching my wife and I (we duo together, and often it's while our daughter surfs disney, or plays on her own computer). This week, my wife created a character for our daughter and we take turns helping her with the commands and running a secondary character to heal or help her with quests.

She loves playing, but has zero interaction with other characters. She is learning about the game, and we are teaching her gaming ethics along the way. By the time she plays on her own, I expect she will be able to display courtesy and fair tactical skill. Because we are teaching her how important those traits are. It's obvious from observation that there are plenty of players from 9 to 90, who (for whatever reason) don't care.

I was recently invited into a PUG with one of my lowbie characters and was appalled by the poor skill and social ability of the "leader". While I didn't catch his age, I would have pegged him at maybe 10 or 12 from the way he acted. His abuse of the others prompted the two priests to just give up and hearth. He could have been 20 or 30, but I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong - many of my guild leaders are 18 and 19 years old, and are capable and fun to play with. It's not about age as much as attitude. But sadly, there IS a correlation between youth and the kind of attitude that turns people off to adventuring with younger players. I tend to give everyone a chance, and as long as they have a decent command of the language and a sense of patience and fairness, I don't really care how old they are.

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I've left a few raids because of 'oh I have to go eat dinner, be back in 10 minutes' right before a major fight. I've left a raid because someone screamed at me on vent and I don't need to deal with that sort of crap. Uncivility will make me leave the group.

There is one toon in our regular raids who is one of those "u'r" "u r" "r u" "ur" types who makes a stupid comment about anything. He's on the /ignore for a lot of people and doesn't know it.

We had another blame 'his brother' for ninjaing. Constantly asks 60s to 'run him through' (we wish) deadmines, etc.

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To Kevo @18 Yeah, that is frustrating. But you don't *have* to deal with those specific people (kick the annoying ones or leave the group). I think that's the real problem. People spend alot of time LFG and when they get one (finally) and it doesn't work out it can be very frustrating - I think everybody has experienced this. We can't take it out on the noob, they weren't trying to waste our game night (or were they?). If they were, then they're more evil than noob.

And to answer my own question, I think the only time a noob can really hurt me is if I run a group with one or one gets ML in one of my guild raids. But the simple fix if you can't/don't want to teach the kid/noob (I only ever try to teach them if I don't have alot else to do at the time - not often) is to just leave the group or kick/drop the person. Yes, it's not nice, but it's painless enough to say that "you're looking for someone with more experience." Now, if my guild put a nub as a master looter... I'd leave the guild :P But that's not something that happens in most guilds. If it did and you got screwed out of phat loot, I'd expect the guild leader to hook you up with something at the next raid and the nub to never get ML again.

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