My problem with endgame is not that it takes work to get decent gear, but the gap from "decent gear" to Epic sets. Obviously Blizzard wants to keep raiders busy, but at the moment there's no way for a casual player to compete with someone who plays 6 hours every day. Skill, class, and luck are nothing; endgame isn't much fun when every friggin elf you run into does more damage AND has nearly twice your hit points :)

It sounds like maybe the expansion team will make it possible for the sort of people who can 4-man stuff because they're smart to compete in PvP against the people who 40-man stuff drunk. Here's to hoping!

Reply

45 Min UD strat. Yah Pugs unless specific built party with good players (all 5 being good) rare but it happens...and potions and knowledge of the pull route...its possible....but getting all the ducks in a row for this is nearly impossible.

I completed 45 min ud strat with a guild party. We did several practice runs using the same route and pulls. To get the path and timing down first.

The actual 45 min moment. We had used flasks of (spell power increase for mage,mana pool for priest he had 8900,had a feral druid for utillity using same pot, Protect spec war, and myself the dagger rogue for dps and i used many potions)

Preping with very expensive potions and a hefty supply of bandages and mana or heal pots...we charged in..

I tell yah what Chain pulling is key and a good timer to go by.

1. Spider boss should be dead and you should be almost to the banshee by 30-35 min....the last tower by 20-25. And near the gate to the fat boys by 10-15 min. Without one flaw.

2. Pray a lot

We cleared it with 5 min to spare at baron. Only because we prepared for this battle with shadow prot potions,defense,trollsblood, flasks , and class specific potions.

I could NEVER imagine a pug doing what we did. Try having 3 gargoyles, 2 spider crypt boys, and a banshee all on you at once and soon after they die we pull 3 ghouls....no resting period...No looting at all. No delays period.

Reply

It's an interesting read and I agree that the Dungeon 2 quest line is pretty much a slap in the face to casuals; they've already done these zones umpteen-million times and are looking for truly new content...but tha's about where it ends for this article.

First: The author of this piece is a rogue. Has he actually compared Darkmantle to Nightslayer/Bloodfang? I mean REALLY looked over the stats and compared? Darkmantle has more agility than Bloodfang does. What does Bloodfang have? More stamina...maybe some set bonuses that will rarely be used. Newsflash - don't collect full armor sets. Do they look cool, sure. But the actual stat bonuses are far from the best combinations that could be assembled mix-and-match. 4-piece Darkmantle plus 2-piece Zul Gurub gear can be a pretty swank combo and offer some nice set bonuses. ZG rewards can really be had by a small guild that is 20-man capable. Where does the "casual" argument end? 5-man zones? 10-man? 20-man content?

Second: Most "casuals" should have run Stratholme enough times that they can deal with the pulls on a 45-minute run. I personally wouldn't try to PuG a 45-min run unless you have about 3-hours to burn; if you wipe, you need to reset the zone. Pulls have to come fast and steady and you need time to get into a groove with the other players. Whomever is pulling (really should be the warrior/druid in this case specifically versus a hunter - aggro should be snap on your main tank), and that person should be pulling the next mob when the current target is around 40% health. Be careful not to get too overzealous - with the pulls or you'll wipe. Just set up some time on a Saturday or Sunday morning and run the zone so you have some time. I've been on about 6 successful 45-minute runs with my Paladin, Druid and Hunter and it is some of the most fun that I have in the game. :)

Third: What is with the Dire Maul hate? Perhaps not totally for a rogue, but DM has some of the best pre-raiding gear that you can acquire and it's been capped at 5-man for a long time. So it's easy to stealth-farm the Felhide Cap and Flamescarred Shoulders...that still doesn't equate to "half the classes don’t have good drops in that place." That statement is complete fallacy. Getting groups for this zone shouldn't be THAT difficult.

One thing I can whole-heartedly agree with the author on though is the difficulty of the quest line bosses. Not only do you have to do the normal clear of most of these zones, but the summoned bosses can be real torture. With that said, he hasn't even SEEN difficult until he gets to the final Dungeon 2 boss in UBRS. I've been in with BWL geared players that have yet to beat him. Blizzard should rethink the difficulty of some of this quest line - risk versus reward needs to be considered. I'd personally like to see the quest line doable regardless of having the gear, so that you can continue on with the series and come back to "trade-in" gear as you complete it. I have a couple other alts that are close to beginning this series but haven't yet gotten their set pieces, even though I've run Strat/Scholo/BRS countless times.

All just my .02 copper and humble opinions on all this. I happen to be a former raiding player so I have had that experience that admittedly a lot of "casuals" don't have. I also agree with the article author that Blizzard really needs to cater to more casual gamers than raiders. You can't honestly tell me that with 6.5 million subscribers that the vast majority of the player-base is in love with end-game raiding - I just don't buy it. I appreciate Blizz wanting to build truly epic encounters for players, I just don't think that slapping 40 people in front of a boss does the trick. Why not a raiding zone that is on a 2-week timer, requiring separate wings to be cleared by 10-man "squads" if you will. Maybe put them on a timer and key anyone to that part of the clear if they enter the zone? Then gradually build the wings up from 10-man to 20 on up to 40-man bosses at the end of the zone? /Shrug - I'm just a player not a dev. :P

Sorry to ramble on. Much

Reply

I would agree - I could never see a PUG running Baron 45. I've ran it twice successfully, and both times it was with members of my guild. We know each other very well, and have played through most of the game together - I think that was a huge help in us being able to finish it on time.

It sounds like we took a slightly different route, though. We killed the banshee first, then the spider. This way you don't have to double back to the banshee after the spider and save yourself sometime.

Even still, it's been close. The first time we got to the Baron with about 1 minute to spare, and the second time we had 4 or 5 minutes I think.

Given the quality of the average PUG, I just don't see it happening.

Granted, of all the quests in this chain that I've done (I am currently on the quest to kill the fire bosses in BRD and UBRS...just haven't gotten around to going there yet), this has by far been the hardest. I've been involved with a few attempts at killing the final boss in the chain (which have been unsuccessful), and that would be the only part that I know of that it at a comparable difficulty to the Baron 45 - and that's the last quest in the chain!

Reply

I raid MC and BWL (ZG and AQ20 too). Myself and 4 other guildies were running UD Strat for the stitchings, but we figured we'd try to hit the Baron in 45 minutes. 48 minutes later we finished. And we were pulling as fast as we could.

5 players, in full epic gear can have a difficult time with a 45 minutes run. So obviously those in pre-epic gear will have an even harder time.

If you're not planning on raiding during end-game, then you might as well not play. Because there is nothing else to do. You could try to earn epics through PvP, but who the hell has time foto get to rank 14?

Reply

Yah Andy we avoided unnecessry battles the path you took we didnt like cause of the gates with the pest spawns....the fountain has alot of mobs around it and more than one eye of nax to deal with.

Our route was from entrance clear to cart...wall crawl towards spider...charge the mobs in the inner corner...when half are dead pull him down to corner....we then ran back to the cart as the mage solod the inner tower...by the time he came back we cleared 2-3 more mobs on way to banshee...then through the alley by her as mage aoed the tower...wall crawl to the last tower...then huged the wall on the north side avoiding all fountain pulls...just the mobs on the wall and any wandering mobs were pulled and aoed down.

They key part I think is the ending....we chased down abominations takingdown two at a time....worked our way to the gate with the pee on mobs...purposely so that the mage can charge in and aoe the crap out of them soon as it opens....from there we rested waited for the elite skeletons...wiped them with aoe...with time to spare preped for baron.

The time killer is the abominations and triggering the weak mob spawn fast ..and getting the elite skeles to come out sooner....that area delays you big time.

SOrry to put strategy on this comments..figure it may help those who are reading this for info.

Reply

quit wow and get titan quest. It's lots of fun, you can play online with your best friends. It has phat lewt coming out of your ears and it doesn't turn into a JOB. Plus you can pause whenever you want without your guildmates giving you greif.

Titan Quest FTW.

Reply

Did it 2/2 with PUGs. Once for practice which turned out successfully. A second time for kicks.
Two entirely different groups of people except for myself.

The keys, imo, are
1) Good Class Mix: good priest, capable tank and HIGH DPS. Forget about potions, you don't need them. We had a few epics but no tier 1/2. You should have almost all blues though. I suggest a rogue and a mage.

2) Keep pulling: no time to drink, if you have a good tank with high defense and aggro is kept on him/her, your priest will maintain a high mana level. Also with high dps you can keep fights to a minimum which saves priest mana. Our priest in the second run didn't drink for the first 10 minutes and he was pulling. Casters should drink while the group continues to fight. Use the split seconds between pulls to drink. I almost got mad when I had 1/2 mana and our priest (who was doing the pulling) pulled the baroness. Realized it was a good thing when we were at baron's gates with 8 mins remaining. You should bandage whenever possible to save priest's mana.

3) Personnel: You really need people who are willing to push the group to its fullest and know their roles. Being careful is not rewarded here. The mobs aren't really that tough in strat undead. The only tricky one is the baroness and her MC. Good luck and watch out for that Eye.

PS. You don't need potions, I didn't use 1 in either run. You don't need vent/TS either but its helpful. Used it on the first run, didn't on the second. The second run we had no wipes/restarts and had more time remaining.

Reply

I did this qith a PUG. We didn't have any teir 2 gear, most of the people were in the gear for the quest. It took some practice and I will admit we had good people, but it is not undoable at all.

Reply

Putting a timer on a game is something developers do when they run out of ideas. Simple as that. I love WoW, but I've hated timed games since I first picked up an Atari VCS controller. My main just dinged 54. I am not looking forward to this.

Reply

I guess not everyone has good experiances with doing a Baron run as I have been lucky enough to have. I'll give you a nice story about an almost 45 minute Baron.

For some reason, it was taking a while to get a group for baron (about 2 hours) which was strange to begin with (but then again, I am a rogue, and there are more rogues than you can shake a stick at). I was able to get the first person, a resto druid by luck by just keeping track on the LFG channel (oh I should mention that I did not see any of the players until we got inside the instance). Second, I got a warrior, who also had a 60 Priest (we were having trouble getting a priest). I told him to stay on the warrior, and luckily, soon after I got a priest. We were looking for one last person, a mage specifically, and if you can believe it, it took another 30 mins to get one, and he was not even 60, he was at 54, but we were just going to do a normal Baron run (the priest did not want to take someone so low, but the druid said "screw it" cause we needed someone).

The group:

Warrior, Priest, Mage, Druid, Rogue, all of which know thier roles.

The warrior shows up, and he was in his Valor set, but had a Quel'Serrar, The priest shows up, and he was in mostly devout stuff, the mage shows up, hes low, so in some greens and some blues, the druid shows up, and hes in full cenarion set (yay). I at the time had 5/8 Shadowcraft, blood guard chest and legs, and a ghostshroud (and a few epics from AV)

We start it off, kill off stuff as normal, we had to help the mage learn the instance and when he had to aoe mobs. This took part of our time. Now, without knowing each other, the priest was doing the pulls, and making them at about halfway through the present mob, so we had as little down time as possible. The mana users kept their mana high, used wands/low mana spells to not attract aggro and just let the tank do his job and let me do my job.

We had to clear a few extra groups than normal because of the mage, but we we're fine, got to the baroness, she got off 5 mind controls (3 on the mage, one on the druid and one on myself). We Moved on to nerub, killed him quickly, no problems. maleki, no problems as usual. Barthilas was another simple fight (the lucky mage got the key). The abominations was probably the hardest of all the pulls (only cause the mages aoe we're not killing the bile spawns fast enough, the priest started doing holy nova's to help). At once point, we were doing 4 at a time, but we managed, because we all kept out cool.

Sadly, this is where the 45 mins gave way. Pretty close. We knew that we all did our best, and if that mage was at 60, we could probably had it. We did finish the run of course, we all felt good that the mage got the cloth drops, since the priest didnt want them, plus he got a key, and maybe some knowledge and some expectations of how to run a good Strat UD run. Now, if a PUG like ours can get to the abominations in 45 minutes, I don't think it should be so bad for other people. It is all about class roles.

In case you wanted to know, Baron droped my legs, so I was happy.

Reply

I've heard 100 stories about how people did this, and it seems the group Ive done this with (twice) is the only one with tank +4 casters. Warrior, Mage, Lock, Priest (me), Shaman. Everyone kitted out with as much water as they could carry.

We used Lock to pull the next mob as soon as the current one was on the way out, Shaman and Mage going DPS crazy, taking in turns to drink a bit. "All" I had to do was hammer GH on the lock and warr. Once we got past the first junction, where overpulls get messy it was a flat out charge through. Lots of fun! Second success even included a wipe! (SS + mana pot ftw)

Reply

Im in a good position to comment - having been the first mage on Scarshield Legion to complete the set
45 min run is a real roadblock to most - the timed part requires good group balance, players knowing there class and at least a basic knowledge of Stratholme Undead side.

Our party was Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Mage and Paladin
Constant pulls are the key, soon as 1 mob is at 20% health, warr runs off to grab another while we dps the old down asap - continue this tactic constantly
Casters drink between pulls and whenever time allows

Route to take is Banshee, Bug, Maleki then bypass the magistrate as hes not needed
(Tactic: if your low on time, sprint into the slaughterhouse gate and DI the priest, rez and go)
Youll know if your on time if your in the slaughterhouse with 15 mins to spare, then it gets crazy - pull 3 at a time, shackle 1 and paladin would offtank the other, you cant aford them to patrol into the tunnel - get out there and drag them in

That just leaves Ramstein, undead pack and barons guards to deal with, we managed to tackle the baron with 5 mins to spare and slaughtered him with vengance

The party itself was just well known friends in the game, not guildies and no super potions needed

Be aware though - the final battle with Lord Vathalack far exceeds this in terms of hardship

Polar

Reply

I think your all a pack of cry babies. I have my 8/8 darkmantle and I did the whole 0.5 quest chain without ANY raid items or help from people in raid items. You just need to learn to play. Without any raid Items I have 482 Agi / 32% crit and 44% dodge RAW. I think DM set bonuses are better than NS quit crying.

Reply